[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Wed Apr 20 21:27:01 EDT 2016 

Oh no, I think I did not understand. You are using ONLY the rotation of the
joystick?

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Alec Smyth <alecsmyth at gmail.com> wrote:

> Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for
> anything?
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick
>> rotary axis.  Rotary axis just rotates the boat.  As the foot control moves
>> more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly
>> from 2.5 to 5v.  I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly
>> increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers.  So after you get past
>> the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the
>> prop.  As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move
>> faster and faster.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use
>>> of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle.
>>> That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward,
>>> back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between
>>> say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward?
>>>
>>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so
>>> they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm
>>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can
>>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my
>>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy,
>>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter
>>> what I do with the joystick.
>>>
>>> 1) Rotating joystick
>>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse
>>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in
>>> opposite directions to crab)
>>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other
>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob")
>>>
>>> 2) Non-rotating joystick
>>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse
>>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern
>>> thruster, decreasing to the other
>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface
>>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing
>>>
>>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command
>>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any
>>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is
>>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your
>>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with
>>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a
>>>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.  It is very
>>>> beefy.  http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to
>>>> the unit.  I am using model number HFP4M17445.  This a heavy duty
>>>> commercial grade foot control.  The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal
>>>> with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full
>>>> reverse.  I have really been happy with the unit.  Feels rock solid.  I
>>>> take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.  I have some ladder
>>>> logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the
>>>> rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal
>>>> thrusters.   If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both
>>>> aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on
>>>> the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.  When you push
>>>> down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back
>>>> you tilt the foot control.  This gives me great forward/reverse and
>>>> control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder
>>>> logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and
>>>> decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.  This enables me at
>>>> speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter
>>>> clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side.  If the foot
>>>> control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the
>>>> boat about its center of gravity.  I have really been happy with how much
>>>> control this gives at any speed.
>>>>
>>>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I
>>>> am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing
>>>> at a reduced cost.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Cliff,
>>>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.
>>>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down
>>>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably
>>>>> intuitive to operate?
>>>>> Thanks Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Cliff,
>>>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options
>>>>> said "reverse"
>>>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change
>>>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.
>>>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse
>>>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.
>>>>> Cheers Alan
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Reversing is fully integrated.  See page 27 of users manual at
>>>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf  for analog
>>>>> control.  0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in
>>>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff / Alec,
>>>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw
>>>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.
>>>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating
>>>>> it with the controller if
>>>>> it doesn't have that function.
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> At Robotshop.com <http://robotshop.com/>, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV
>>>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.  Each board would
>>>>> control two of the MK101s independently.  Has a lot of flexibility on input
>>>>> signal.  If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the
>>>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and
>>>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old)
>>>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4
>>>>> thrusters.  They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have
>>>>> an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means
>>>>> that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller
>>>>> powered up while in the garage.
>>>>>
>>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from
>>>>> Curtis.  This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was
>>>>> irritating.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What did Cliff use?
>>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the
>>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm
>>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems
>>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more
>>>>> advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel
>>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one
>>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks guys for all the input!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
>>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Alec,
>>>>> that one says brushless?
>>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
>>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
>>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the
>>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>>>>>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller
>>>>> whose continual
>>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>>>>>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some
>>>>> manufacturers over rate
>>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, &
>>>>> their ratings accurate,
>>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday &
>>>>> the ON light
>>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the
>>>>> pre-ignition resister
>>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton
>>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from
>>>>> Roboteq:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>>>>>
>>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters.
>>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still
>>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less
>>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous
>>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to
>>>>> consider?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
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>>>>
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