<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpfaf1cafayahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"></div>
<div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style=""><div style=""><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;">Jon, from my perspective we don't have a good enough understanding of how these 101s work to start a pSubs standardization effort. I think we need to keep experimenting on multiple fronts to sort out reliability issues.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;">Sean, likewise, for the same reason, I don't think we have these 101's working well enough to start hammering out functional specifications. To me it would be better to find which set up makes these 101 the most reliable then perform a series of test to document performance envelope.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;">Below are my key notes from this thread.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;">Notes:</div>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial;color:#1D2228"><span>1)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">Sean, River and others have questioned the efficacy of
using WD-40 for pressure compensation purpose on the basis of its known
properties.<span> </span>Particularly it being a penetrant
as opposed to an oil that has </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:#1D2228;background:white">lubricity</span>.<span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228"></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>2)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Carsten
is using silicone fluid - <span style="color:#525252;background:white">ELBESIL
OIL B 1, a low-viscosity volatile methylsiloxane with a viscosity of 1 cSt.<span> </span>“Also </span><span style="color:black;background:white">The glue of the permanent magnets can be affected</span>” by
the WD-40.</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=""><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;"><span>3)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40);">"</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(51, 51, 51);">Handbook of Fluid-Filled,
Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795 recommends
as a general-purpose pressure compensation oil that meets a lot of their </span><span style="line-height: 107%; background: white;"><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">requirements Tellus</span></font><font color="#1d2228" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> 11, ISO name Morlina 5, that has a kinematic </span></font></span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(82, 82, 82); background: white;">viscosity</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40); background: white;"> 5</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(82, 82, 82); background: white;"> cSt.</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40); background: white;">
This can be purchased now as Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 which is a special low
viscosity, solvent refined mineral oil blended with zinc free additives, to
provide extended performance in the high-speed spindles of machine tools.</span><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;"></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style=""><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;"><span>4)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="line-height: 107%; background: white;"><font color="#1d2228" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">River on his deep diving (6000m) ROVs is using Univolt
transformer oil which has </span><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">a kinematic</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> </span></font></span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(82, 82, 82); background: white;">viscosity</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40); background: white;">
5</span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(82, 82, 82); background: white;"> cSt, or </span><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;">silicone fluid.<span style="color:#1D2228;background:white"><span> </span></span></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>5)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Fischer
Scientific has a silicone fluid<span> </span>5 cSt at
$294 per gallon</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>6)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Sean
points out “Clearco makes a line of polydimethylsiloxane oils (silicone oils)
with available viscosities down to 0.65 cSt, which is thinner than water.”</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>7)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Hank
on his small motors drains and fills his thrusters each dive season.<span> </span>“The oil is dirty but no sludge. <span> </span>My feeling is the low amps from the small
motors reduces wear on the brushes, compared to the 101's.<span> </span>Also, my springs may be stronger relative to
surface area.”</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>8)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Hank, “</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Helvetica,sans-serif;color:#1D2228;background:white">For me oil is reliable, but I don't like the
mess. I have two motors with oil (30lb). and two with air compensation.
I have a good feeling about the air system. I am using a first
stage regulator with the spring removed, giving me a 2 pound over pressure. The
regulator gets psi from the first stage regulator on the supply tank.
The 2 pounds is a guess. To relieve the pressure, I have added an
adjustable relief valve that will vent both motors. I think the problem
with air compensation has been the regulator choice. I had no luck with
the Parker valve or the second stage scuba. My theory on the scuba
regulator failure is the lack of over pressure and the length of lines going to
the motors. The scuba second stage does work well on my arm, but it is
mounted to the arm with a large junction box.</span>”<span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif"></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>9)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Hank, “I
am working on a magnetic coupler end cap this winter.<span> </span>I have had very good luck with WD-40 and have
two 55 lb motors still running after more than 20 years.<span> </span>The only difference is, I use much smaller
motors.<span> </span>My oil goes black right away and
I do get a very small amount of water by season end.<span> </span>I drain the dirty oil and replace.”</span></p>
<div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial"><span>10)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;"> </span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Alan “One
thing I gleaned from that reading (<span><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13.3333px;">AD894795) </span></span>is that there is always an</span> <span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif">internal
over-pressure of around 5psi used. That is why I am working on an over-pressure
regulator.”</span></div>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40);"><span>11)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40);">"</span><span style="line-height: 107%;"><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Handbook of Fluid-Filled, Depth/Pressure-Compensating Systems
for Deep Ocean Applications" AD894795, Page II-222.4.1 Individual </span></font><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">Case “</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">There is a need for filtering
devices in fluid-filled motors to prolong life of bearings and wear
surfaces.</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Particle contamination may be
continuously circulated in an individual case.</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">
</span><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Especially with d-c motor, the </span></font><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">problem carbon</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> brush wear contaminations enhanced by the limited fluid volume
available to dilute the carbon.</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Bearing
wear may increase and the dielectric strength of the fluid will decrease as
carbon contamination ensues.</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Carbon
buildup in a fluid also increases the possibility of d-c arcing and
grounding.</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span><font color="#333333" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">Another additive</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;"> effect of carbon contamination is
the d-c commutation tends to degenerate.”</span></font><span style="color: rgb(51, 51, 51); font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"> </span></span><span style="font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; font-family: Arial, sans-serif; color: rgb(29, 34, 40); font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%;"></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt; line-height: 107%; color: rgb(29, 34, 40);"><span>12)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="line-height: 107%;"><font color="#1d2228" face="Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From an article on “Brush life in
DC motors” under </span><span style="font-size: 13.3333px;">erosion, “</span><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Sparking
increases with current loading and motor speed. Brush life decreases with
increased sparking.”</span></font></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial;color:#1D2228"><span>13)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">Alec, Hank and I all saw the
10W-40 turn black very quickly. </span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial;color:#1D2228"><span>14)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">Alec and I both use accordion shaped
bladder for thermal expansion on our 101’s.<span>
</span>At the end of each dive these were expanded past the volume you would
expect due to thermal expansion of the 10W-40.<span>
</span>Hank with his small motors found some but not a lot bladder expansion.<span> </span>This leads me to think the larger current
passing between the armature brushes and the commutator is causing more arcing
in the 101 and this more gas generation.</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial;color:#1D2228"><span>15)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">Sean and others have noted that a
difference between air filled and oil filled motors is the journaling affect that
is dependent on the rpm and fluid viscosity.<span>
</span>The journaling is causing the brushes to lift off the commutators to
some degree overcoming the brush spring load.<span>
</span>Arcing then is occurring across this thin film of oil. The result is loss
of performance and accelerated wear on brushes.</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><!--[if !supportLists]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;mso-fareast-font-family:Arial;color:#1D2228"><span>16)<span style="font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 7pt; line-height: normal; font-family: Times New Roman;">
</span></span></span><!--[endif]--><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">River, “I suspect that the
bushing wear is caused by the low viscosity of the WD40 making it a poor choice
for lubrication. I've always been told WD40 is a penetrating oil, not a
lubricating oil.”</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoListParagraphCxSpLast" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228"> </span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoNormal" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">We have a number
of ongoing projects including Alan James brushless air/oil pressure compensated
thruster design.<span> </span>Alec is planning on
trying a single mechanical seal on a 101 and use as a 1-atm can and live with
whatever depth the 101 housings and o-rings can withstand.<span> </span>I have a pressure test chamber that I can
test under dynamic conditions this modified 101.<span> </span>Hank has just successfully tested to 60 ft
his new air compensation setup and is planning on changing the small MKs from oil
to this same air compensation system.<span>
</span>His tear down showed minimal damage to commutator and not a lot of brush
debris. He is also going to do some experimenting with a home brewed magnetic
coupler on a 101 this winter. </span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoNormal" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228">Before I abandon
oil compensation on these 101s, I would like to use my bollard test rig in my
pool to test three different pressure compensation fluids, 1) a low viscosity
silicone fluid, 2) <span style="background:white">Shell Morlina S2 BL 5 and 3) Univolt
transformer oil (5 cSt).<span> </span>As a control I
will run the MK 101 with air and no pressure compensation (1 atm).<span> </span>For each case I will run the thrusters for 48
hours at high maximum control voltage with prop installed.<span> </span>Before and after each test I will weigh the
brushes to measure the wear per unit time.<span>
</span>The test rig already has bollard force measurement, rpm measurement, current
and voltage to the motor.<span> </span>I will also
add a motor pressure measurement.<span> </span>If arcing
causes gas to build up, the plastic accordion bladder will expand so the
pressure is an indirect measurement of the gas buildup in the motor.<span> </span>The test rig as it now sets is run off three
12V deep cycle 100 Ah batteries wired in series.<span> </span>To get the capacity to 48 hours I will need
to add three battery chargers that will offset the amps being pulled by the
motor under load.<span> </span></span></span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoNormal" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228;background:white">What
I am looking for is if one of these fluids is substantially better at
minimizing arcing and minimizing brush wear.<span>
</span>At the end of each test, I tear down, take pictures and will replace brush set and use emery cloth on
the armature commutator.<span> </span><span> </span>For these full-load 48-hour test, I don’t see
the need to replace the lip seals each time. </span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoNormal" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228;background:white">For
which ever fluid comes out best, I would do another set of tests at high, medium
and low shaft speeds to see how the change in current and rpm affects the thruster performance
as well a brush life.</span></p>
<p class="ydp17fc7685MsoNormal" style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px; background: white;"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228;background:white">If
I cannot find a compensating fluid that works for these brushed 101 motors, I
will abandon oil compensation and switch back to air compensation unless Alec
or Hank come up with a 1-atm system that works.<span>
</span>Decision will also depend on how well Alan's new brushless
thruster design works.</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;line-height:107%;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:#1D2228"></span></p></div>Cliff</div><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div>
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On Thursday, July 27, 2023 at 08:33:07 AM CDT, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydp33825d78yiv0972622775"><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp33825d78yiv0972622775yahoo-style-wrap"><br><div>I would like this group “think tank” to come up with a viable and accepted solution for all compensation modes; air, oil, and 1-ATM. It would provide a known standard to build to while still allowing for enhancements by those who want to try other alternatives. I’m sure that all of collaborating on this project will end up with good results. </div><div><br></div><div>Jon</div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div>
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