<div dir="auto">Thank Carsten !<div dir="auto">Very , very well said ! </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Wed, Jun 28, 2023, 2:53 PM <a href="mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">MerlinSub@t-online.de</a> via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">I do not know much about Karls sub. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">But I know a lot about my subs. </span><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">And a lot of other people self build subs. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Euronaut is build to class rules, to Germanischer Lloyd, Swiss Lloyds and ASME code from 1987. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Is it classed ? No it is not. It is x-rayed - yes it is. Did I use certified Material for the pressure hull steel and windows ? - Yes I Do. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">Did I listen to other people during the construction? Yes I do - one reason I am in the Psubs group by the way.. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif">And one reason the sub was much more expensive than calculate in the begining. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Did ever a class inspector see the vessel - no. Did it have more backup systems than class required - yes it has. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Would class accept my sub if I put the money for them in - no the would not - some equipment is second hand without </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">papers like the diesel engine, the electric motor and most of th aviation gauges, intercom and so on. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">But do I ever carry paying guest to make money? - No never. For this purpose you can rent a classed tourist submarine. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Over the years we found that some class rules are to expensive for small private build and owned sub. Technical and cost overkill. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">So I write a simpler form of class rules to adoped for smaller vessels (Psubs) - but not for passenger vessels. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">(and not for the US-market for insurance reasons)</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">But this is not the point. If the titan vessel has class or not is not important to me. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">If a inpector see the vessel or not - is not important to me. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">For me is important: </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Has he an hatch to escape a smoke or fire on the surface? </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Can the boat surface fully on it own? </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Has he a backup ROV on the Mothership or another submarine incase of an emergency in such heavy deeps were nobody can help him?</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Is the hull proper tested? </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Has it a proper navigation and comunication system?</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- Has the designrr listen to the white old man's with over 30-40 years expirence in these field? Or did he ignore he some or all advices?</span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">- And so on .. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">For me he was looking for the cheapest way to get rich people to the titanic. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">This 19 year old son was not killed by a submarine acciedent- he was killed by a white old man ignorance.. </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">He was afraid about this sub and dont want to get in - what did say say to make him get in? </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px">PS : I dont care about the controller either. </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px">Carsten </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Datum: 2023-06-24T19:38:39+0200</p>
<p style="margin:0px">Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px">An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<p style="margin:0px"> </p>
<div style="color:#000000;font:12px Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">
<div style="font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;font-size:16px">
<div> </div>
<div dir="ltr">How do you know Idabel is built mostly to ABS rules? Because Stanley says so? </div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">As I used to tell Will Kohnen, there are only two kinds of submarines in the world; certified and non-certified. If a sub is not certified it doesn't matter what they are used for, what they carry, or how deep they dive; you do not know and cannot say with certainty whether it meets ABS standards regardless of who fabricated it. A non-certified vessel built by the best submarine builder in the world cannot be proven to be any more in compliance with ABS standards than the psubber that builds a non-certified K350 in their backyard. It is the certification that proves compliance to standards and that makes all non-certified submarines equal. I think we may all agree there can be obvious signs of an unsafe vessel, however in totality the concept of how "safe" a non-certified submarine is, is subjective.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">I don't have anything against Stanley and am not suggesting he be reigned in, however Sean has asked a perfectly reasonable question and I think before we start holding anyone accountable for the Titan loss we need to know whether the industry is going to endorse double standards or hold everyone to the same standard.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Bringing the question back to you...take out the personalities, friendships, and acquaintances...look only at the facts...there is a non-certified submarine taking passengers-for-hire to a depth of 3000 feet in an unsupervised environment. Does PSUBS have a responsibility to petition ABS or the courts to intervene and stop the operation because it might be unsafe?</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Jon</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div>
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a">
<div>On Saturday, June 24, 2023 at 12:10:28 PM EDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div>Sean raises a good point. There is however a big difference. Karl’s sub is built mostly to ABS rules and at least to standard engineering guidelines. My issue is not with being classed. Classing a sub does not make it safer, it just proves it is safe. The boiler plate waiver would apply and be sufficient in Karl’s case.
<div>Hank<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div>
<div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div></div>_______________________________________________<br>
Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
<a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br>
</blockquote></div>