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<p>Thanks for the reference!</p>
<p>Marc<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/27/2023 3:16 AM, irox via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:ad438b87-1d62-a2fe-f7b2-2e73097db8aa@ix.netcom.com">
<meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">
<div
style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12pt">
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hi Marc,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">that was a long
time... I believe it was the unsupported/unstiffened thin
wall formula (possible from C T F Ross Pressure Vessel's
book). It does seem a bit high, possibly I'm
mis-remembering/guessing, but I do remember it was a lot
higher than expected. During concrete pouring a sample of
each pour was taken, these samples would need to be tested to
determine the properties of the actual concrete used. Those
test results would then be used to more accurately estimate
collapse depth.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Wilfried's site
is still up with some pictures and links to videos:</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"><a
href="http://concretesubmarine.com/" moz-do-not-send="true"
class="moz-txt-link-freetext">http://concretesubmarine.com/</a></p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Thanks,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> Ian.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
</div>
<div class="elnk-inline-message-container" style="border-left: 1px
solid #aaa; box-sizing: border-box; padding: 10px 0 10px 15px;
margin: 0;">
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Sent: Jun 25, 2023 6:22 PM<br>
To: irox via Personal_Submersibles
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Concrete hull submarine</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p>How was the crush depth calculated?</p>
<p>Marc de Piolenc</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:</div>
<blockquote
cite="mid:976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com">
<div style="color: #000000; font-family: arial,sans-serif;
font-size: 12pt;">
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hi Alec,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Yes, that's
pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built
the Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Short
version:</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">The
construction phase was plagued with delays, including the
shipyard we'd rented space from going bankrupt (twice),
and one time all the managers were arrested and led off
the site in handcuffs. Each delay added months, sometimes
this would use up the dry part of year delaying work until
next year. Eventually the launch permit expired, also the
local administrator positions were rotated (every 4 years)
and the incoming administrator were not happy to hear
about a submarine being built in their jurisdiction.
Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch permit and
asked for a large sum of money each month for
'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a
launch permit later. Work on the project stopped here.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Shortly after
that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be used
as their private ship chandlers. There was a free-n-clear
clause in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting
right at the water's edge waiting to be launched, would
cause problems and potentially trigger a lawsuit. In the
end I denied ownership of the sub, based on it never
officially being delivered. The sub sat in the shipyard
for 10+ years after that. I would periodically check on
it using Google maps satellite view. Most recently the
sub was replaced by a pile of rubble, so I assume it had
been destroyed.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">A few notes
on the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off):</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hull:
Teardrop</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Construction:
Slip cast reinforced concrete</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Length:
19meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Width:
4.5meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational
depth: 300meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crush depth:
2800meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crew: 4</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational
dive time: 1 week</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Emergency
life support: 3 weeks</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Viewports: 1
bow dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ROV lockout
chamber.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface
propulsion: Diesel engine</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged
propulsion: Electric</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface
range: 2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being
realistic)</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged
range: 50 miles</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ABS (and
offshore concrete structure rules) was to be followed as
much as possible, which did cause some disagreement...</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Ultimately I
knew this project contained risk, and at the time I was
able to accept that risk.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">I would
consider doing this again, but in the USA, and with an
improved design which should be more conducive to
following ABS. Ideally this would be done in away so
hulls could be cheaply manufactured for destructive
testing.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Cheers,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> Ian.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
</div>
<div class="elnk-inline-message-container" style="border-left:
1px solid #aaa; box-sizing: border-box; padding: 10px 0 10px
15px; margin: 0;">
<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM<br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <a
class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
moz-do-not-send="true"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at
Titanic site</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<div dir="ltr">There's an interesting story about cement
subs, which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In
the early years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget,
I believe Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement
sub that he kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was
successful, he dived it for years. But eventually he moved
to Colombia due to marriage, and scuttled the sub in the
lake, because the road he had used to take it there had
been re-routed or modified somehow, leaving him without
any way of getting it out. The sub became an attraction
for local SCUBA divers.
<div> </div>
<div>The second part of the story is that another PSUBS
member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him
a large cement sub with the intention of making it an
ocean going live-aboard. The project was done completely
on the level, with notification to authorities and in a
major port. This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It
got to the point where the hull was complete, and I
think they were about for the first launch. However,
Colombia being plagued by drug subs, the authorities
would not sign off on final paperwork or something
(can't remember the exact glitch.) Ian had sunk a ton of
funds into it, and the sub was probably perfectly good,
but approval never came. I'm not sure what happened to
the sub. But Ian is still very much active, so maybe can
tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the email list. If you
are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this rather painful
memory!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Alec</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at
8:35 AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <<a
class="moz-txt-link-freetext"
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
moz-do-not-send="true">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left:
1ex;">
<div>
<p>That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had
built a superstructure on a conventional pressure
hull.</p>
<p>Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox.</p>
<p>Marc</p>
<div>On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman','new
york',times,serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr">Marc, that was probably Brian Cox
who passed away a year or so ago. His pressure
hull was steel but he did use ferrocement for
the superstructure. <a
href="http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">There are no standards for using
ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull
and I think anyone attempting it would find
little support for the project given the Ocean
Gate loss.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Jon</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
id="m_4380271176043459050ydpc0df22c3yahoo_quoted_7854919351">
<div style="font-family: 'Helvetica
Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size:
13px; color: #26282a;">
<div>On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM
EDT, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles
<a
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a>
wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I know. I fell in love with FC
for yachts, which made me wonder how <br
clear="none">
useful it would be for pressure hulls...
Turns out there is a 2010 <br clear="none">
exchange of messages in my archive with
somebody on this list who built <br
clear="none">
in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there?<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Marc<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br clear="none">
> Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even
the landing barges in the ww2 , to make
piers to in load ships!<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">
></div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<br>
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<pre>--
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<pre class="moz-signature">--
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
Archivale catalog: <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.archivale.com">http://www.archivale.com</a>
Mass Flow (ducted fans): <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://massflow.archivale.com">http://massflow.archivale.com</a>
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