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    <p>How was the crush depth calculated?</p>
    <p>Marc de Piolenc<br>
    </p>
    <div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via
      Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br>
    </div>
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      cite="mid:976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com">
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        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hi Alec,</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Yes, that's
          pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built the
          Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Short version:</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">The construction
          phase was plagued with delays, including the shipyard we'd
          rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one time all the
          managers were arrested and led off the site in handcuffs. 
          Each delay added months, sometimes this would use up the dry
          part of year delaying work until next year.  Eventually the
          launch permit expired, also the local administrator positions
          were rotated (every 4 years) and the incoming administrator
          were not happy to hear about a submarine being built in their
          jurisdiction.  Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch
          permit and asked for a large sum of money each month for
          'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a launch
          permit later.  Work on the project stopped here.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Shortly after
          that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be used as
          their private ship chandlers.  There was a free-n-clear clause
          in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right at
          the water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems
          and potentially trigger a lawsuit.  In the end I denied
          ownership of the sub, based on it never officially being
          delivered.  The sub sat in the shipyard for 10+ years after
          that.   I would periodically check on it using Google maps
          satellite view.  Most recently the sub was replaced by a pile
          of rubble, so I assume it had been destroyed.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">A few notes on
          the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off):</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hull: Teardrop</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Construction:
          Slip cast reinforced concrete</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Length: 19meters</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Width: 4.5meters</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational
          depth: 300meters</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crush depth:
          2800meters</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crew: 4</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational dive
          time: 1 week</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Emergency life
          support: 3 weeks</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Viewports: 1 bow
          dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ROV lockout
          chamber.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface
          propulsion: Diesel engine</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged
          propulsion: Electric</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface range:
          2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being realistic)</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged range:
          50 miles</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ABS (and offshore
          concrete structure rules) was to be followed as much as
          possible, which did cause some disagreement...</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Ultimately I knew
          this project contained risk, and at the time I was able to
          accept that risk.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">I would consider
          doing this again, but in the USA, and with an improved design
          which should be more conducive to following ABS.  Ideally this
          would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply manufactured
          for destructive testing.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Cheers,</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">  Ian.</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
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        <p>-----Original Message-----<br>
          From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
          Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM<br>
          To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
          <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
          Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at
          Titanic site</p>
        <p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
        <div dir="ltr">There's an interesting story about cement subs,
          which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early
          years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe
          Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he
          kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he
          dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to
          marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road
          he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified
          somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The
          sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers. 
          <div> </div>
          <div>The second part of the story is that another PSUBS
            member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a
            large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean
            going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the
            level, with notification to authorities and in a major port.
            This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the
            point where the hull was complete, and I think they were
            about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued
            by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final
            paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.)
            Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was
            probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not
            sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much
            active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the
            email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this
            rather painful memory!</div>
          <div> </div>
          <div>Best,</div>
          <div>Alec</div>
        </div>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">
          <div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at
            8:35 AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <<a
              href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
              moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>
            wrote:</div>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
            0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
            <div>
              <p>That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built
                a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull.</p>
              <p>Very sorry  to hear about Brian Cox.</p>
              <p>Marc</p>
              <div>On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via
                Personal_Submersibles wrote:</div>
              <blockquote>
                <div style="font-family: 'times new roman','new
                  york',times,serif; font-size: 16px;">
                  <div dir="ltr">Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who
                    passed away a year or so ago.  His pressure hull was
                    steel but he did use ferrocement for the
                    superstructure.  <a
href="http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1"
                      target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"
                      moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1</a></div>
                  <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                  <div dir="ltr">There are no standards for using
                    ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and
                    I think anyone attempting it would find little
                    support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss.</div>
                  <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                  <div dir="ltr">Jon</div>
                  <div dir="ltr"> </div>
                  <div> </div>
                </div>
                <div
                  id="m_4380271176043459050ydpc0df22c3yahoo_quoted_7854919351">
                  <div style="font-family: 'Helvetica
                    Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
                    color: #26282a;">
                    <div>On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT,
                      Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <a
                        href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
                        target="_blank" rel="noopener"
                        moz-do-not-send="true"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a>
                      wrote:</div>
                    <div> </div>
                    <div> </div>
                    <div>
                      <div dir="ltr">I know. I fell in love with FC for
                        yachts, which made me wonder how <br
                          clear="none">
                        useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns
                        out there is a 2010 <br clear="none">
                        exchange of messages in my archive with somebody
                        on this list who built <br clear="none">
                        in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there?<br
                          clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        Marc<br clear="none">
                        <br clear="none">
                        On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via
                        Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br clear="none">
                        > Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the
                        landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in
                        load ships!<br clear="none">
                        ><br clear="none">
                        > Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">
                        ><br clear="none">
                      </div>
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