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<p>How was the crush depth calculated?</p>
<p>Marc de Piolenc<br>
</p>
<div class="moz-cite-prefix">On 6/26/2023 3:01 AM, irox via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite"
cite="mid:976d5bd4-c9e1-4cf7-fcdf-00c8c57b7e92@ix.netcom.com">
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<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hi Alec,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Yes, that's
pretty much it. Wilfried Ellmer is the person who built the
Swiss sub and started the one in Columbia.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Short version:</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">The construction
phase was plagued with delays, including the shipyard we'd
rented space from going bankrupt (twice), and one time all the
managers were arrested and led off the site in handcuffs.
Each delay added months, sometimes this would use up the dry
part of year delaying work until next year. Eventually the
launch permit expired, also the local administrator positions
were rotated (every 4 years) and the incoming administrator
were not happy to hear about a submarine being built in their
jurisdiction. Ultimately they refused to reissue the launch
permit and asked for a large sum of money each month for
'inspections' with the vague chance they would issue a launch
permit later. Work on the project stopped here.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Shortly after
that the shipyard was sold to a energy company to be used as
their private ship chandlers. There was a free-n-clear clause
in the sale and the concrete submarine, now sitting right at
the water's edge waiting to be launched, would cause problems
and potentially trigger a lawsuit. In the end I denied
ownership of the sub, based on it never officially being
delivered. The sub sat in the shipyard for 10+ years after
that. I would periodically check on it using Google maps
satellite view. Most recently the sub was replaced by a pile
of rubble, so I assume it had been destroyed.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">A few notes on
the sub (from memory, so numbers might be off):</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Hull: Teardrop</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Construction:
Slip cast reinforced concrete</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Length: 19meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Width: 4.5meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational
depth: 300meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crush depth:
2800meters</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Crew: 4</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Operational dive
time: 1 week</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Emergency life
support: 3 weeks</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Viewports: 1 bow
dome, 8 small "sky-light" viewports.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ROV lockout
chamber.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface
propulsion: Diesel engine</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged
propulsion: Electric</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Surface range:
2500 miles (not sure if that would end up being realistic)</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Submerged range:
50 miles</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">ABS (and offshore
concrete structure rules) was to be followed as much as
possible, which did cause some disagreement...</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Ultimately I knew
this project contained risk, and at the time I was able to
accept that risk.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">I would consider
doing this again, but in the USA, and with an improved design
which should be more conducive to following ABS. Ideally this
would be done in away so hulls could be cheaply manufactured
for destructive testing.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;">Cheers,</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> Ian.</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
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solid #aaa; box-sizing: border-box; padding: 10px 0 10px 15px;
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<p>-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Sent: Jun 25, 2023 8:08 AM<br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at
Titanic site</p>
<p style="margin: 0.1rem 0; line-height: 1.0;"> </p>
<div dir="ltr">There's an interesting story about cement subs,
which I will tell to the best of my recollection. In the early
years we had a PSUBS member whose name I forget, I believe
Swiss or Austrian, who had built a ferrocement sub that he
kept at a mooring in a Swiss lake. The sub was successful, he
dived it for years. But eventually he moved to Colombia due to
marriage, and scuttled the sub in the lake, because the road
he had used to take it there had been re-routed or modified
somehow, leaving him without any way of getting it out. The
sub became an attraction for local SCUBA divers.
<div> </div>
<div>The second part of the story is that another PSUBS
member, Ian Roxborough, hired the first guy to build him a
large cement sub with the intention of making it an ocean
going live-aboard. The project was done completely on the
level, with notification to authorities and in a major port.
This was no drug sub built in the jungle. It got to the
point where the hull was complete, and I think they were
about for the first launch. However, Colombia being plagued
by drug subs, the authorities would not sign off on final
paperwork or something (can't remember the exact glitch.)
Ian had sunk a ton of funds into it, and the sub was
probably perfectly good, but approval never came. I'm not
sure what happened to the sub. But Ian is still very much
active, so maybe can tell us. I'm not sure if he's on the
email list. If you are, Ian, sorry for bringing up this
rather painful memory!</div>
<div> </div>
<div>Best,</div>
<div>Alec</div>
</div>
<br>
<div class="gmail_quote">
<div class="gmail_attr" dir="ltr">On Sun, Jun 25, 2023 at
8:35 AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <<a
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-freetext">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>
wrote:</div>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0px 0px 0px
0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid #cccccc; padding-left: 1ex;">
<div>
<p>That's it. I lost interest when I realized he had built
a superstructure on a conventional pressure hull.</p>
<p>Very sorry to hear about Brian Cox.</p>
<p>Marc</p>
<div>On 6/25/2023 6:11 PM, Jon Wallace via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:</div>
<blockquote>
<div style="font-family: 'times new roman','new
york',times,serif; font-size: 16px;">
<div dir="ltr">Marc, that was probably Brian Cox who
passed away a year or so ago. His pressure hull was
steel but he did use ferrocement for the
superstructure. <a
href="http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1"
target="_blank" rel="nofollow noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.subdb.info/cgi/database/showvessel/index.cgi?ID=1272980224&VN=Esmae&VT=1</a></div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">There are no standards for using
ferrocement as a manned submarine pressure hull and
I think anyone attempting it would find little
support for the project given the Ocean Gate loss.</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div dir="ltr">Jon</div>
<div dir="ltr"> </div>
<div> </div>
</div>
<div
id="m_4380271176043459050ydpc0df22c3yahoo_quoted_7854919351">
<div style="font-family: 'Helvetica
Neue',Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 13px;
color: #26282a;">
<div>On Sunday, June 25, 2023 at 04:09:00 AM EDT,
Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <a
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org"
target="_blank" rel="noopener"
moz-do-not-send="true"><personal_submersibles@psubs.org></a>
wrote:</div>
<div> </div>
<div> </div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">I know. I fell in love with FC for
yachts, which made me wonder how <br
clear="none">
useful it would be for pressure hulls... Turns
out there is a 2010 <br clear="none">
exchange of messages in my archive with somebody
on this list who built <br clear="none">
in FC, Brian Cox. Is he still there?<br
clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Marc<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 6/24/2023 8:27 PM, Bernie Hellstrom via
Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br clear="none">
> Many boat hulls were made with FC. Even the
landing barges in the ww2 , to make piers to in
load ships!<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
> Sent from my iPhone<br clear="none">
><br clear="none">
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<pre class="moz-signature" cols="72">--
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