<div dir="auto">Jon,<div dir="auto">Have you considered two smaller banks of 50ah batteries spread across both pods? Unfortunately, the popular 12v 100ah LiFePO4 batteries on the market are all just a little to big to fit in the kittredge pods.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I'm with you. From a maintenance point of view alone, LiFePO4 is the way to go.</div><div dir="auto"><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature" dir="auto">River J Dolfi<br><a href="mailto:Rdolfi7@gmail.com">Rdolfi7@gmail.com</a> <br>412-997-2526</div></div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Jun 7, 2022, 20:26 via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2<br>
(Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Wed, 8 Jun 2022 03:25:28 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
To: "<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>,<br>
"<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-request@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles-request@psubs.org</a>"<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-request@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles-request@psubs.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107,<br>
Issue 2<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1467532091.766897.1654658728231@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1467532091.766897.1654658728231@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hugh, how big are the files?? Can you email them to me?<br>
>From what I've seen and heard with others experience, I feel 50ah per trolling motor is plenty.? I'm using 36v 101# minnkota's and would like to use a 36v 100ah battery that could power two motors.? Length is not an issue but the diameter of the pods limits the width cross-section.? I'll have to measure again to get the exact size but it's about 8.75 inches.<br>
Rebel sells a 36v-100ah LiFePO4 for $1595 (US) but won't fit in my battery pods.? I might be able to get it to fit inside the sub though.<br>
Jon<br>
<br>
<br>
On Monday, June 6, 2022, 06:18:07 PM EDT, via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote: <br>
<br>
Hi Jon, Hank, et co.<br>
<br>
I have been repackaging LiFePO4 for 10 years now since I started.<br>
This is the main thing that has kept me from getting my sub in the water.<br>
<br>
First thing you need to decide on is the Life PO4 type.? Either cylindrical<br>
or Prismatic.? Cylindrical batteries have better performance.? I am using 15<br>
Ah cells (headway 40152S 15Ah )which have a 10C discharge i.e. 150 amps.? We<br>
have made a test circuit where we discharge them at 150 amps and see what<br>
the current drops to in each cell.? I have 560 cells.? The problem with them<br>
is that you need multiple CMU (cell management Units) to balance them and<br>
then report via CAN to the BMS.? These cells are 40mm diam x mounted in<br>
hexagonal plastic interlocking mounts and you can build different shapes.? I<br>
have a number of different strings of 8 cells (24v) in parallel and series.<br>
The idea of these is to have an air space around each cell and to provide<br>
good cooling.<br>
<br>
Due to the pain in my butt from having all these CMU's to deal with I am now<br>
changing over to Prismatic which are rectangular.? The ones I am using are<br>
120Ah and I am able to get 1.5 times the total energy for the sub.? i.e.<br>
32kwh instead of 22 kwh.? Now I am able to use far fewer CMU's and simplify<br>
the system and packaging but only able to get 2C discharge (240 amps per<br>
cell).? These cells are a lot cheaper and easier to manage and<br>
package/service etc..<br>
<br>
The problem with sub batteries is the length of time between uses and<br>
keeping the system charged.<br>
<br>
This is a lengthy subject and I have a fair bit of experience in problems<br>
that I have had.? <br>
I suggest you put together the wish list you have and the operating voltage<br>
and total amphours you are wanting to achieve.<br>
<br>
I would not recommend removing the BMS and CMU's from the packs.<br>
<br>
Jon if you can tell me where I can drop a bunch of documents I am sure I can<br>
assist with my experience in these.? I have had some cells let go and others<br>
punctured.? Both types.<br>
<br>
I am also importing electric vehicles with lead acid and going to convert to<br>
LiFePo4.<br>
<br>
Cheers to all,<br>
Hugh<br>
<br>
-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>> On<br>
Behalf Of via Personal_Submersibles<br>
Sent: Tuesday, 7 June 2022 7:50 AM<br>
To: <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
Subject: Personal_Submersibles Digest, Vol 107, Issue 2<br>
<br>
Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to<br>
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or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
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When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than<br>
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<br>
Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
? 1. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
? 2. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
? 3. Re: Repackaged LifePo4? (David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 11:27:39 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">1768746693.7700625.1654514859732@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery<br>
pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery<br>
weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two<br>
LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of<br>
maintenance.<br>
Jon<br>
<br>
? ? On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via<br>
Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:? <br>
<br>
The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is designed<br>
using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth<br>
considering.?Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three<br>
models and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but<br>
have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and<br>
possible weight differences.?Rick ?<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
?Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following some<br>
of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's<br>
inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of<br>
them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the<br>
container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At<br>
first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the<br>
container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which<br>
seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So<br>
I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide<br>
LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes.<br>
Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to current<br>
battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging current<br>
market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any reason not<br>
to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would want to hear.<br>
Jon<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 08:25:20 -0600<br>
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:E937B7EF-67DE-429B-9F2A-92E5AC3A33A4@yahoo.ca" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">E937B7EF-67DE-429B-9F2A-92E5AC3A33A4@yahoo.ca</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In my case<br>
there is little space saving height wise but there could be savings on the<br>
width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant padding<br>
under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board, you could<br>
reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very doable if you built<br>
a cage. <br>
Hank<br>
<br>
<br>
Sent from my iPhone<br>
<br>
> On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
> <br>
> ?<br>
> I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the battery<br>
pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the original battery<br>
weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire submarine with just two<br>
LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of<br>
maintenance.<br>
> <br>
> Jon<br>
> <br>
> <br>
>> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via<br>
Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>> <br>
>> <br>
>> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is<br>
designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but worth<br>
considering. <br>
>> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models<br>
and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but have<br>
decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space limitations and<br>
possible weight differences. <br>
>> Rick<br>
>> <br>
>> Sent from my iPhone<br>
>> <br>
>>> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>> <br>
>> ?<br>
>> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following<br>
some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see what's<br>
inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice with all of<br>
them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly smaller than the<br>
container they are inserted into and use padding keep them centered.? At<br>
first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the cells against the<br>
container but also noticed that padding is not used on the bottom which<br>
seems to me where most movement that might cause chafing would occur.? So<br>
I'm left to assume manufactures are simply using padding so they can provide<br>
LifePo batteries in industry standard battery group sizes.<br>
>> <br>
>> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to<br>
current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about repackaging<br>
current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? I can't see any<br>
reason not to do it but am sure there are some opinions out there I would<br>
want to hear.<br>
>> <br>
>> Jon<br>
>> <br>
>> _______________________________________________<br>
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br>
>> <a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
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>> <br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 6 Jun 2022 12:49:46 -0700<br>
From: David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br>
??? <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Repackaged LifePo4?<br>
Message-ID:<br>
??? <CAHHFyEGjyRy2TnWcQHLWWH8xnJsrC2z+ciy1Y=<a href="mailto:VeNY-PqvG7LA@mail.gmail.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">VeNY-PqvG7LA@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Hi Jon, I am currently using a single battery in the VAST interior AGM,<br>
weight of 58 lbs, dim 13.3x6.875x8.5" tall, 92 AH. My replacement lipo4 is<br>
43.1 lbs, dim 19.02x6.7x9.45" tall, and 200AH.<br>
This battery I will be laying on its side which gives me an additional 2<br>
inches of vertical height, which will give me better access to the scrubber<br>
location.The loss of weight of 14.3 lbs will be cast as a lead weight and<br>
placed in my drop weight tray. Better center of gravity and less weight in<br>
the aft section.<br>
I have played with the idea of having the cells placed as an arc between the<br>
internal t ribs as an alternative by building my own lipo4 battery pack. It<br>
would certainly give back valuable? space in the VAST with such a design,<br>
just not sure I have the bandwidth to add another design project to my<br>
current schedule, but you never know.<br>
My thoughts on the battery pods, are to use the lipo4 as they come, figure<br>
out how to add lead weights in the hollow area beneath the batteries for<br>
some cast lead strips. At a cost $500 per battery or more depending on the<br>
AH desired, I wouldn't cut them open. Might be cheaper to build your own.<br>
David<br>
<br>
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022, 7:26 AM hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> Jon, I had the same idea and cut the top off one of my batteries. In <br>
> my case there is little space saving height wise but there could be<br>
savings on<br>
> the width.? The BMS sits on top of the cells.? There is no significant<br>
> padding under the cells.? If you are willing to remove the BMS board, <br>
> you could reduce the heigh by about 2 inches.? This would be very <br>
> doable if you built a cage.<br>
> Hank<br>
><br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPhone<br>
><br>
> On Jun 6, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < <br>
> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> ?<br>
> I agree, buoyancy is a factor but can be addressed by filling the <br>
> battery pods with lead or concrete weight in replacement of the <br>
> original battery weight.? I believe I can literally power the entire <br>
> submarine with just two<br>
> LiFePo4 batteries if I wanted to.? That's attractive to me in terms of <br>
> maintenance.<br>
><br>
> Jon<br>
><br>
><br>
> On Monday, June 6, 2022, 07:06:11 AM EDT, Rick Patton via <br>
> Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
><br>
> The one thing that comes to mind Jon is that the Ksubs buoyancy is <br>
> designed using the wet cell batteries which may not be an issue but <br>
> worth considering.<br>
> Batteries have come so far since the Captain designed his three models <br>
> and I have wanted to upgrade to a more efficient battery myself but <br>
> have decided to stick with what?s on the plans due to space <br>
> limitations and possible weight differences.<br>
> Rick<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPhone<br>
><br>
> On Jun 6, 2022, at 6:34 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles < <br>
> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> ?<br>
> Looking for some brain-power deductive reasoning.? I've been following <br>
> some of these youtube channels that teardown LiFePo4 batteries to see <br>
> what's inside and also test various functions of them.? I've notice <br>
> with all of them that the actual Lifepo packs are significantly <br>
> smaller than the container they are inserted into and use padding keep <br>
> them centered.? At first I assumed this was to prevent chafing of the <br>
> cells against the container but also noticed that padding is not used <br>
> on the bottom which seems to me where most movement that might cause <br>
> chafing would occur.? So I'm left to assume manufactures are simply <br>
> using padding so they can provide LifePo batteries in industry standard<br>
battery group sizes.<br>
><br>
> Given that the battery pods on K-Subs do not lend themselves well to <br>
> current battery groups I'm curious what you guys think about <br>
> repackaging current market LifePO batteries into smaller containers.? <br>
> I can't see any reason not to do it but am sure there are some <br>
> opinions out there I would want to hear.<br>
><br>
> Jon<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
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><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
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><br>
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> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br>
> <a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br>
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