<DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">James,</FONT><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> You could feed it into a small hydraulic cylinder with a piston if you wanted. One side with oil pushing the piston and the other side letting seawater in and out.</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif">Brian</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor oil compensator</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Date: Thu, 26 Mar 2020 17:14:41 +0000</SPAN><BR><BR><DIV dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;">Also interested in Cliff's compensator regulator that was mentioned. Any info on that.<DIV><BR>Many thanks</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><DIV dir="ltr">On Thu, 26 Mar 2020 at 17:08, James Frankland <<A href="mailto:jamesf@guernseysubmarine.com">jamesf@guernseysubmarine.com</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr">Hi Alan,<DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Im using silicone oil. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I deliberately kinked the hoses for the very reason you say. I initially used silicone hose which is much softer and flexible, but it reacted with the oil and expanded, quite a lot.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I think I might see if i can get some thinner walled tube (but not silicone) and wrap it around the motor a couple of times, to give it a bigger compensator. </DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Can other people confirm that a small amount of air in the tube is acceptable? I have been constantly trying to remove every bubble. If a small amount is ok, im pretty good to go.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Also I will be making some progress on my new sub pretty soon. Just getting a heavy hoist sorted, which at the moment is difficult as all the shops are shut.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Regards</DIV><DIV>James</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 21:38, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="auto"><DIV></DIV><DIV>James,</DIV><DIV>that method with the hose wrapped around has come under criticism previously.</DIV><DIV>Fortunately you have a kink in the hose which initiates a collapse of the hose to </DIV><DIV>provide some equalisation. We calculated that the hose may take over 100psi </DIV><DIV>external pressure before it collapsed to provide equalisation. So at depth water</DIV><DIV>would push past the seals before there was any compensation.</DIV><DIV>I don't know whether you are still getting trapped air in the system coming out</DIV><DIV>or whether expansion & contraction when out of the water is sucking air in.</DIV><DIV>But for air to get in, oil would have to get out. Maybe oil expands out through the</DIV><DIV>seals when you transit & it heats up, & then causes a vacuum when you take the sub</DIV><DIV>out of the water & the motors cool down, thus sucking air in.</DIV><DIV>Perhaps you could run the motors out of the water for a while untill they feel </DIV><DIV>hot, & see if any oil comes out. Another thought is that if you are using WD40</DIV><DIV>or similar, perhaps it is pushing past the seals with the hot cold variation over</DIV><DIV>each day, & evaporating away so that there's not much evidence of a leak.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR>On 26/03/2020, at 1:35 AM, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">Hi All,<DIV>This is a really interesting topic for me. I have been meaning to ask this for a while but been a bit busy with other stuff.</DIV><DIV>I need to modify my motors again somehow. I have a simple tube coming from the top of the motor with a valve that i can shut, so i can seal the motor and close it off.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>No matter what i do, i always seem to end up with a small amount of air in the tube.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>This picture is the only one i can find.</DIV><DIV><BR>The tube comes out the top, around to a valve secured underneath. Thats it. There is no hole on the underside any more.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I fill it, it seems fine. The next day there are a few bubbles, which i would expect from just sticking to things. So i clear that. However, after either a dive or some time, a small amount of air gets in the tube.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>There appears to be no leaks and no seawater in the motor.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>What am i doing wrong? Its such a nuisance and worry to me.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I have heard that some people put the prop shaft seals in backwards? I didnt do that, they are just standard.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>I suspect im getting pressure differences and its sucking air past the seal. Maybe some sort of 5 psi pressure system is required, as per cliffs method? Any more info on that?<BR><BR>Thanks, </DIV><DIV>James</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><DIV><image.png><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Wed, 25 Mar 2020 at 08:43, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="auto"><DIV></DIV><DIV>Brian,</DIV><DIV>not sure of your depth but if you are going to 300ft, the air will be compressed to</DIV><DIV>1/12th the volume, so the oil overflow reservoir is going to be problematic because</DIV><DIV>It's large volume could mean the seawater would come a long way up the tube on</DIV><DIV>the seaward side. Also using it as an overflow would create the problem of "how do </DIV><DIV>I get the oil back in the motor" & " how do I monitor it".</DIV><DIV>I have had rubber perish in WD40 so I would watch that if you are considering using</DIV><DIV>a rubber compensator.</DIV><DIV>Have a look at the PDF I referenced as that has several options.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR>On 25/03/2020, at 5:40 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><FONT size="2" style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif">Alan, </FONT><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> So do you see any issues with the way I have my compensator set up? I've been trying to see a scenario where it wouldn't work, but I don't see one. One reason I like it is because there in no over or under pressure in the system.</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif">Brian</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> </FONT><BR></FONT><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor oil compensator</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 17:28:21 +1300</SPAN><BR><BR><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"></DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Brian,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I wouldn't read a lot in to that experiment as far as heating goes, as when</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">the motor is under load it will be drawing a lot more amps & develop a</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">lot more heat.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">But people run the Minnkotas with air compensation & get away with it.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Alan</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><BR>On 25/03/2020, at 2:09 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> Alan, </FONT></FONT><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> In my case my motor pod contains about 8 gallons of WD40 . I ran the motors the other day , all day long for about 10 hours straight . The temp outside was around 60 F so it sort of simulated our water temperature here. I was surprised to discover that the expansion of the oil was not as much as I thought it would be , it was about 1/2 gallon. It reached a point where it stopped expanding, so I guess it reached a point of equilibrium with respect to the temperature. One problem I have is in the summer the oil actually expands more than when the motor is running just sitting there heating up from the ambient temperature. I think in the summer I'm going to disconnect the hose and put it into a bucket when sitting. </FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif">Brian</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> </FONT></FONT><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor oil compensator</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Date: Wed, 25 Mar 2020 13:25:53 +1300</SPAN><BR><BR><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"></DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Brian,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">there is this military de-classified 1972 document on pressure compensating.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><A href="https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/894795.pdf">https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/894795.pdf</A></DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I printed it out & had it bound.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I found that the rotation of the motor was throwing the oil out of the motor</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">housing & up in to the compensating tube. If you dived there would be added</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">pressure to keep the oil in the motor housing, but this wouldn't happen transiting</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">on the surface. As the oil also keeps the Motor cool, there may be a danger of</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">the motor overheating in this instance.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">As you will find in the linked manual, a minimum of 5psi over pressure is the norm.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">I am going to use the same system as Cliff, with the relieving regulator dialled</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">up to 5psi to give an overpressure. However my system has oil in it so I get it's </DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">cooling advantages & eliminate large air volume changes.</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt">Alan</DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><BR>On 25/03/2020, at 11:19 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><DIV><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><FONT size="2">Seawater gets compressed up the hose, so never goes above the highest point of the hose. When oil heats up it spills into trap and cannot escape to the sea. </FONT><DIV><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2">Brian</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT><BR><SPAN style="font-size:10pt">--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size:10pt">From: Øystein Skarholm via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size:10pt">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size:10pt">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] motor oil compensator</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size:10pt">Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2020 22:21:15 +0100</SPAN><BR><BR><DIV dir="ltr" style="font-size:10pt">You should avoid contact between the seawater and the oil. The oil will contaminate quickly and it will no longer be dielectric. <DIV>Just the hose from the motor to the tee is enough to compensate. You do not have to have a large volume of oil. Fill the hose with oil and cap it off, done. or make a neat yet more sophisticated solution. </DIV><DIV>Make the end lid of the motor as a flange assembly and instead of a lid, use a rubber diaphragm. This will then act as a compensator. You can even install a light spring pushing down on the diaphragm if you want a slight internal overpressure. </DIV><DIV><DIV><image.png><BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><BR><DIV style="font-size:10pt"><DIV dir="ltr">tir. 24. mar. 2020 kl. 21:28 skrev Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV style="font-family:Arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt"><FONT size="2">Here is a drawing for my oil compensator</FONT><DIV><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV></DIV>_______________________________________________<BR>
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