<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div></div><div>Brian,</div><div>That's a different product than what you are using isn't it?</div><div>Also they are using prefabricated sheets formed in controlled conditions </div><div>that they machined, rather than a 2 part pour method that you are using.</div><div>Can you check with your products technical adviser on whether you would</div><div>loose strength on a thick pour due to the higher internal temperatures due to</div><div>chemical reactions?</div><div>Generally with plastic items there is a 4 X safety factor required where human</div><div>life is at risk. This wouldn't apply with a ROV.</div><div>You might be on to a good thing, but just being anal about safety as usual.</div><div>Someone kindly pointed out that Alan was an anagram for anal lol.</div><div>Cheers.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br>On 28/06/2019, at 4:18 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><a href="https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper">https://www.generalplastics.com/case-applications/subsea-foam-equipped-rovs-dive-deeper</a><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><br>--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:<br><br>From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation<br>Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 03:16:58 +0000 (UTC)<br><br><div style="font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;"><div></div>
<div>This could work. Would need the pressure gauge to confirm that water did not leak out on return to the surface. It is probably easier just to cast a sample and send it to Hank to video at depth with a ruler behind it.</div><div><br></div><div>To get a 16 lbf/ft^3 specific volume at one atm, the foam would have to have over 70% air trapped in the foam at the surface. I just can't see how this air in not going to collapse at depth to some degree. </div><div><br></div><div>What you need is syntactic foam which was designed for this application. If the foam shrinks during the descent, you are going to have to use your MBT to compensate.</div><div><br></div><div>I think you would do better to make a simplified syntactic foam with off the shelf polyester resin plus 3M glass micro-spheres as a filler. Without macorospheres, I think the best specific weight you can expect is 30-40 lbf/ft^3 but at lease you would be assured that this buoyancy was depth independent because the air filled glass microspheres would be keeping the from <span><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: times new roman, new york, times, serif; font-size: 16px;">collapsing</span></span>. </div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Cliff</div><div><br></div><div> </div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 09:32:28 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Maybe I could pour the foam into a large diameter pipe of say 5" x 10" long, close the pipe up with a bell fitting , plumb in a high pressure check valve, but before that put in a tee with a ball valve. As the pipe descends water comes in through the check valve as the foam ( allegedly) shrinks in volume. Then, when it is brought up the check valve keeps the pressure at the max depth pressure (600' depth) . When the pipe is at the surface it would still have the pressure of say 300psi. Then you could open the ball valve into a container and measure the amount of seawater that was drawn in . Maybe put a pressure gauge on there too.</font></font><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Brian</font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> </font></font><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:23:42 -0700</span><br><br><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Cliff, There is probably a way I can determine if it shrinks or not at depth. I'm sure some clever person on this list could devise such a way .</font></font><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 18:17:45 -0500</span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Brian this would only be a good test if you had a camera on it with a ruler. I believe it would compress significantly then expand when you took back to surface. Without microspheres and or macro spheres, there is just nothing to keep the entrained air from shrinking . The pressure rating you need is what pressure you can take without any change in volume.</span><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><br></div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><br><div><br></div><div>Cliff <br><br><div dir="ltr">Sent from my iPhone</div><div dir="ltr"><br>On Jun 27, 2019, at 5:01 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2">I think what I might just do is just go out in my sailboat , off Pt. Magu, and drop a test plug down to 600' , bring it back up and check it out. Need to go out for a sail anyway ! </font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 08:41:55 +1200</span><br><br><div style="font-size:10pt;"></div><div style="font-size:10pt;">Brian,</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">If I had $3million spare I wouldn't spend it on syntactic foam.</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">The danger is that if you were descending you might not know that you</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">were becoming negatively buoyant until you tried to stop. Then when </div><div style="font-size:10pt;">you tried to counter by filling the ballast tanks with air; because of the compression</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">of the air at depth this might be a slow process.</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">Bottom line is not to dive the sub in depths that are beyond your maximum</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">dive depth till you are confident the foam isn't compressing.</div><div style="font-size:10pt;">Alan</div><div style="font-size:10pt;"><br></div><div style="font-size:10pt;"><br></div><div style="font-size:10pt;"><br>On 28/06/2019, at 7:41 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote style="font-size:10pt;"><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Alan, I don't have 3 million dollars. In any event I only need it to go to 300 psi, theoretically , I also have about 1000 cu ft of air on board and could easily fill my ballast many times over even if the foam were to shrink. I don't think the foam has an elastic property to it. </font></font><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font></div><div><font face="Arial, sans-serif" size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Date: Fri, 28 Jun 2019 07:33:33 +1200</span><br><br><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"></div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Brian,</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">as Cliff says it may have a volumetric change under pressure that leaves</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">you negatively buoyant. I am not sure how you would test this in a </div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">pressure chamber.</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">As an example, a soccer ball could take a lot of pressure & look perfectly</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">fine after a pressure test even though it might have been reduced to a </div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">fraction of its original size in the process.</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">I was told that Alvin's syntactic foam & testing process cost $3 million.</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">They put it together in segments after testing each individual segment.</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">It might be perfectly OK though...</div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Alan </div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><br>On 28/06/2019, at 7:03 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2">I have a pressure gauge guy who does oil industry work that I think has a small chamber where I could test a plug of foam.</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 11:37:26 -0700</span><br><br><div style="font-size:10pt;font-family:Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Cliff,</font><div><font size="2"> It's rated for 580 psi.</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">Brian<br></font><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 15:55:01 +0000 (UTC)</span><br><br><div style="font-size:16px;"><div></div>
<div>Brian, this is not syntactic foam. It's made for marine service but not for deep submergence. It is really for surface buoyancy. I would not use this if you are relying on it for buoyancy at depth. It is the macro-spheres and microspheres in syntactic foam that prevent it compression at depth. I don't think this foam has either.</div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards</div><div><br></div><div>Cliff</div><div><br></div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, June 27, 2019, 10:45:29 AM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2">Clifff, Here is the foam, it's the most dense foam , the 16lbs / cu ft</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><a href="http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html">http://www.uscomposites.com/foam.html</a></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">suppose to be good to 580 psi </font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Date: Thu, 27 Jun 2019 14:29:12 +0000 (UTC)</span><br><br><div style="font-size:16px;"><div></div>
<div>Brian, I have been tied up and have not had a chance to follow this thread but I wanted to make sure you understand that unless this pour-able 2 part foam has a filler like 3-M's glass micro-spheres or some kind of incompressible macrosphere, then while the foam may appear rigid, it would compress when subjected to deep water and thus your buoyancy would be reduced. I don't think this is a replacement for syntactic foam if that is what you are doing. Can you send a link to the foam you are using?</div><div><br></div><div>Best Regards </div><div><br></div>
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On Wednesday, June 26, 2019, 10:30:48 PM CDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2" style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;">Hi everybody,</font><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> I poured a small test piece of that 16 lb foam, man that stuff gets as hard as a rock ! very dense , and very light. This pouring of the foam is not going to be as straight forward as I thought, The barrier to contain the foam is working out good, I'm just using wood and thin 1/8" luan , then I'm covering that with 4 mil flexible plastic ( heavy garbage type bag) so the foam won't stick to it. But I'm worried that any little gaps I have and the liquid foam might run out the bottom of those areas before it starts foaming, so I'm cramming big blankets ( cheap moving blankets from harbor freight) in tight to contain any foam. That way I can get the cavity that I'm trying to fill completely maxed out. Waiting for an 80 + degree day . </font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif">Brian</font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></font></div><div><font size="2"><font face="Arial, sans-serif"><br></font></font><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2019 16:12:46 -0700</span><br><br><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2">My first batch of foam cam today ! yay ! two five gallon pails, A and B, should be interesting !</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Foam preperation</span><br><span style="font-size:10pt;">Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2019 17:47:56 +0000 (UTC)</span><br><br><div style="font-size:13px;"><div></div>
<div>Brian,</div><div>Did you find foam to fill the void?</div><div>Hank</div><div><br></div>
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On Thursday, June 20, 2019, 8:30:55 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;"><font size="2">Kind of unnerving drilling holes in my boat !</font><div><font size="2"><br></font></div><div><font size="2"><br></font></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div>
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</div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="font-size:10pt;"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br></div></blockquote><span style="font-size:10pt;">_______________________________________________
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</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote><div dir="ltr"><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br></div></blockquote></div></div><span style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif;font-size:10pt;">_______________________________________________
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</div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>