<html><body><div><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Very well said Sean. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression sickness. I wonder, if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas to verify its operation.<br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. <br>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><font size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. </font><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style=""><font size="2" style=""><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> Great analysis !</font></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear</span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________
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<div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Tom<br>
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<div>On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div><div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><font size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. </font><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style=""><font size="2" style=""><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> Great analysis !</font></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear</span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________
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<div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Tom<br>
<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Get <a href="https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></div>
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<div>On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div><div><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing so. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples of this. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of partial pressure. This is generally considered safe for all. Above that it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at 218 fsw. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber where tolerance is greater. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables ) <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified understanding of it. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The higher the oxygen exposure, the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more quickly a person may be affected. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust that is enough to keep us alive. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to avoid disaster. I can't say! I would think that any delay in getting equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress could predispose to ox tox also. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility of success. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Get <a href="https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</a></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><font size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. </font><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style=""><font size="2" style=""><font face="Arial, sans-serif"> Great analysis !</font></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2">Brian</font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font></div><div style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><font size="2"><br></font><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear</span><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)</span><br><br><span style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________
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<div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A<br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. <br>
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<div dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Tom<br>
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<div>On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div style="font-size: 10pt;"><div></div><div>Sean,</div><div>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</div><div>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</div><div>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</div><div>escape for those classes of submersibles.</div><div>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</div><div>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</div><div>Inflate much against the water pressure.</div><div>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</div><div>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<br><br>Sean<br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote><br><div><span></span></div><div><div><span></span></div><div><div></div><div>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</div><div>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</div><div>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</div><div>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</div><div>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</div><div>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote><div><div dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec </div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div>Shanee</div><div><br></div>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<div>Rick</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<div><br></div><div>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><br><div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>CG requirements</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><i><b>safety</b></i></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><b><i>repair kit</i></b></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</div><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</blockquote></div><br><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</div><div style="font-family:georgia,serif"><br></div><div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><span style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</span><br></div><div><br></div></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif">:::::</font></div><div><font face="georgia, serif"><br></font></div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</span></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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</div><br><div><DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><FONT size="2" style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;">There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth. And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe. </FONT><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2">Tom, does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely because of oxygen toxicity?</FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV style=""><FONT size="2" style=""><FONT face="Arial, sans-serif"> Great analysis !</FONT></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2">Brian</FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial, sans-serif;"><FONT size="2"><BR></FONT><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear</SPAN><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)</SPAN><BR><BR><SPAN style="font-size: 10pt;">_______________________________________________
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<DIV style="font-size: 10pt;"><DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel qualified to comment on this. <BR>
<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning. <BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface. <BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably drowning.<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this, what this means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient. For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less. The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport oxygen into the body.. <BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways. <BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to this discussion)<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I don't have an easy solution to your problem, but can say that when escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum to sustain life at the surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure using air. <BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off. <BR>
<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing your escape gas at that point. Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of approximately 218 ft.<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">If you have any questions of this nature, I'll do my best to help. <BR>
<BR>
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<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Tom<BR>
<BR>
</DIV>
<DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; "><DIV dir="auto" style="direction: ltr; margin: 0; padding: 0; font-family: sans-serif; font-size: 11pt; color: black; ">Get <A href="https://aka.ms/ghei36">Outlook for Android</A></DIV>
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<DIV>On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <SPAN dir="ltr"><<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR>
<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<DIV dir="3D"ltr"">
<DIV></DIV><DIV>Sean,</DIV><DIV>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</DIV><DIV>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</DIV><DIV>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</DIV><DIV>escape for those classes of submersibles.</DIV><DIV>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</DIV><DIV>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</DIV><DIV>Inflate much against the water pressure.</DIV><DIV>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</DIV><DIV>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<BR><BR>Sean<BR><BR>-------- Original Message --------<BR>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><DIV><DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</DIV><DIV>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</DIV><DIV>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</DIV><DIV>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</DIV><DIV>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</DIV><DIV>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Best,</DIV><DIV>Alec </DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV>Shanee</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<DIV>Rick</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Best,</DIV><DIV>Alec</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><I><B>CG requirements</B></I></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><I><B>safety</B></I></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><B><I>repair kit</I></B></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</SPAN><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">:::::</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</SPAN><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">:::::</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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</DIV><BR><DIV style="font-size: 10pt;"><DIV></DIV><DIV>Sean,</DIV><DIV>Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.</DIV><DIV>I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping</DIV><DIV>at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for</DIV><DIV>escape for those classes of submersibles.</DIV><DIV>Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A conventional</DIV><DIV>life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't</DIV><DIV>Inflate much against the water pressure.</DIV><DIV>We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms</DIV><DIV>and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR>On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise? I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable to leave the bottom.<BR><BR>Sean<BR><BR>-------- Original Message --------<BR>On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><DIV><DIV><SPAN></SPAN></DIV><DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming</DIV><DIV>through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.</DIV><DIV>Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required</DIV><DIV>to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward</DIV><DIV>the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible</DIV><DIV>due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out anyway.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR>On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing. Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140 feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3". <DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Best,</DIV><DIV>Alec </DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV>Shanee</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV>Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal as possible.<DIV>Rick</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water, blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my whole life!</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other than all your organs getting squished, of course. </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Thanks for your input everybody!</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr">Hi Shanee,<DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a flashlight.</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV>Best,</DIV><DIV>Alec</DIV></DIV><BR><DIV><DIV dir="ltr">On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Hi all,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far): </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><I><B>CG requirements</B></I></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">air horn</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">whistle</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">life jackets</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire extinguisher</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><I><B>safety</B></I></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">fire blanket</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x scuba masks</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">2x spare air</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">primary gas analyzer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">backup gas analyzer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">handheld radios</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">uw radio system</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><B><I>repair kit</I></B></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">gorilla tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">electrical tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">butyl tape</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">zip tie assortment</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare battery terminals</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire connectors</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">spare wire</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">splash zone</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">JB weld</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel tie wire</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">steel strap</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">e6000 glue </DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">hose clamp assortment</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">screwdriver set</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">adjustable wrench</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">multi-tool</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">hammer</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">scissors</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">What's in your kits?</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Best,</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Shanee</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</SPAN><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">:::::</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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</BLOCKQUOTE></DIV><BR><DIV><BR></DIV>-- <BR><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif">Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project</DIV><DIV style="font-family:georgia,serif"><BR></DIV><DIV><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV><DIV><SPAN style="font-family:georgia,serif">:::::</SPAN><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo Levi </FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif">:::::</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face="georgia, serif"><BR></FONT></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:georgia,serif;white-space:pre-wrap">'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity, and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams</SPAN></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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