<div dir="ltr">Cliff and Sean, how the heck did you learn all this stuff?!? All I know about A/C units is that the one in my car doesn't work anymore (maybe it needs some more poison stuff!). (Kinda kidding here). <div><br></div><div>What I'm getting out of this conversation is that if I want A/C in Snoopy, I'm probably best off building an ice cooler like Brian and the like have done. ~ Doug </div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Tue, Apr 2, 2019 at 2:34 PM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The problem with refrigerants in confined spaces, and this is true both of HFC-134a and the environmentally friendly(er) alternatives, such as HFO-1234yf, is that they release extremely toxic decomposition products in the event of fire. Of course, any fire is going to compromise your atmosphere, so this may be a moot point, but it's something to consider. HFC-134a has low acute toxicity, but is not strictly a simple inert asphyxiant. A 1 hour EEGL exposure limit recommendation that I managed to find for HFC-134a is 4,000 ppm.<br><br>In a 72 cu. ft. volume, assuming a starting FO2 of 20.9%, you could add a full 7 cu. ft. of simple asphyxiant gas before the cabin FO2 dropped to 19%. Death likely wouldn't occur due to hypoxia above 16% FO2, but you won't be accomplishing much with oxygen that low. 19.0% to 19.5% are typical occupational limits for oxygen deficient atmospheres.<br><br>That said, hypoxia is not the only risk as I pointed out. I would consider the health effects from inhalation exposure and keep to recommended exposure limits. For maximum safety, I might be inclined to separate refrigerants from occupied spaces by means of a water / propylene glycol heat exchanger circuit, but of course this will affect your energy budgets.<br><br>Sean<br><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Apr 2, 2019, 11:49, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486protonmail_quote"><br><div><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yahoo-style-wrap"><div id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869"><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydp24017b51yahoo-style-wrap"><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"></div>
<div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px">Keith, I like the idea of a DIY AC system for my boat but hate the idea of dying because of a refrigerant leak. I looked up the MSDS sheet for HFC-134a (common refrigant used in auto AC systems) <a shape="rect" class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869enhancr_card_5128173108" href="https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D" style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">ImageViewer</a> Seems like it is classified as a <span style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px">Simple Asphyxian which according to Wikipidia "<span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px">An </span><b style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px">asphyxiant gas</b><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"> is a nontoxic or minimally toxic </span><a shape="rect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas" title="Gas" style="color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">gas</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"> which reduces or displaces the normal </span><a shape="rect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen" title="Oxygen" style="color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">oxygen</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"> concentration in breathing </span><a shape="rect" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_composition" title="Gas composition" style="color:rgb(11,0,128);background-image:none;font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">air</a><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px">. "</span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none"></div><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-link-enhancr-card gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-link-enhancr-not-allow-cover gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6ymail-preserve-class gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6ymail-preserve-style" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6enhancr_card_5128173108" style="font-family:"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;font-size:16px;max-width:400px"><a shape="rect" class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-enhancr-cardlink" href="https://3eonline.com/ImageServer/ImageViewer.aspx?id=3Q%2FfAR8ne%2FvPh6syVnSymkS%2BBDo8OjmbVocxRCMEgeG%2Fk%2B6G7BpCwxJIcm%2FtzFJTddB5zxzJXIW7nbmF5mKrdg%3D%3D" style="text-decoration:none;color:rgb(0,0,0)" rel="nofollow" target="_blank"><table class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6card-wrapper gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-ignore-table" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="max-width:400px"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" width="400"><table class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6card gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-ignore-table" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" width="100%" style="max-width:400px;border:1px solid rgb(224,228,233);border-top-left-radius:2px;border-top-right-radius:2px;border-bottom-right-radius:2px;border-bottom-left-radius:2px"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1"><table class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6card-info gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6yahoo-ignore-table" border="0" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);width:100%;max-width:400px;border-top-left-radius:0px;border-top-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-right-radius:2px;border-bottom-left-radius:2px;border-top-width:1px;border-top-style:solid;border-top-color:rgb(224,228,233);background-position:initial initial;background-repeat:initial initial"><tbody><tr><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="background-color:rgb(255,255,255);padding:16px 0px 16px 12px;vertical-align:top;border-top-left-radius:0px;border-top-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-left-radius:2px"></td><td colspan="1" rowspan="1" style="vertical-align:middle;padding:12px 24px 16px 12px;width:99%;font-family:"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;border-top-left-radius:0px;border-top-right-radius:0px;border-bottom-right-radius:2px;border-bottom-left-radius:0px"><h2 class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6card-title" style="font-size:14px;line-height:19px;margin:0px 0px 6px;font-family:"Helvetica Neue","Segoe UI",Helvetica,Arial,sans-serif;color:rgb(38,40,42)">ImageViewer</h2><p class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpd9591711yiv9550314869ydpadcff8a6card-description" style="font-size:12px;line-height:16px;margin:0px;color:rgb(151,155,167)"></p></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></td></tr></tbody></table></a></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><span><span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"><br clear="none"></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><span><span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"><span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px">What this mean to me is that we would to do a calc to see what the oxygen concentration in a 1-atm boat would go to if all the <span>HFC-134a in the unit was released at one time to see if the concentration would result in hypoxia for the operator. In my boat I measure O2 concentration as I have a PID controller tasked with keeping the O2 concentration at 21% So I would get a low O2 alarm rather quickly.</span></span></span><br clear="none"></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><br></div><div>Sean, you are a technical diver, do you think there would be an issue with hypoxia if <span style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px;color:rgb(0,0,0)">all the </span>HFC-134a in a small AC unit were dumped into a one atm cabin say 72 cuft?</div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><span><span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"><span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><br></span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><span><span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"><span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span>Cliff</span></span></span></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><span><span><span><span style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:sans-serif;font-size:10.5px"><br clear="none"></span></span></span></span></div><div style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><br clear="none"></div>
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On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 11:46:05 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766"><div>The DC compressor & water cooled condenser are the most expensive items.<div><br clear="none"></div><div>If your a DIY'er, go to your nearest "Pick & Pull" get a car AC compressor add a DC drive motor, condenser & evap coil and roll your own. It will take 2 HP to full drive the compressor, however you can vary the speed and control the cooling, while minimizing current drain. You'll need a refrigerant detector as a leak will kill you in the confines of a PSUB. Or go thermo electric.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Keith T.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766yqt7051536556" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766yqtfd23425"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Date: 4/2/19 8:40 AM (GMT-08:00) </div><div>To: k6fee via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available </div><div><br clear="none"></div></div></div><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766yqt7051536556" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766yqtfd98764"><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpc198c439yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><div></div>
<div>Thanks for the links, The MES24S - 24V unit looks like it would work great but at $3,895 , I am not going to be ordering in the near future. In the spirit of Psub and DIY, I wonder how hard it would be to design and build on of these units. Seems to be made up of readily available parts like a compressor, blower, coil ....</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Cliff</div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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On Tuesday, April 2, 2019, 9:46:03 AM CDT, k6fee via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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<div><div id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288"><div><div>Allen,</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Check these out.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><a href="http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE" target="_blank">http://www.cruisencomfortusa.com/marineseries/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIirDF5s6x4QIVcyCtBh3K8w2JEAMYASADEgIDqvD_BwE</a><div><br clear="none"></div><div><a href="http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20" target="_blank">http://www.comar-marine.com/product.php?id_product=20</a></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Keith T.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:rgb(0,0,0)"><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288yqt3392438724" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288yqtfd26820"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Date: 4/2/19 7:06 AM (GMT-08:00) </div><div>To: Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> </div><div>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] K350 motors and housings - available </div><div><br clear="none"></div></div></div><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288yqt3392438724" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288yqtfd86137"><div class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288ydp13f774e1yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px"><div></div>
<div>To me AC on personal subs is an interesting topic. As the Psub community frequently dives off Islamorada Florida, it is a relative thread.</div><div>Below is a graph taken from flight recorder on the R300 during a Psub dive off the coast of <span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:"times new roman","new york",times,serif;font-size:16px">Islamorada in August of 2017.</span></span></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><img class="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv9767036766ydpf4ae7d6eyiv3975522288yahoo-inline-image" id="gmail-m_-7837774581459685486ydpc0557cc8yiv9550314869ydp374cbf89yiv97670367661554222953155" title="Inline image" alt="Inline image" style="max-width: 624px; width: 100%;" name="m_-7837774581459685486_com_samsung_android_email_attachmentprovider_1_3916_RAW_1554215426836"><br clear="none"><span></span> </div><div>It got very hot and humid during the 4.5 hour dive. Note that the cabin temperature reached 96 F, the relative humidly reached 85% and the heat index reached 146 F. To say that I could have used small AC unit in the boat is an understatement! One of the implications of this cabin environment was that I could not keep the viewport clear. I soaked the towels I had on board very quickly trying to clear the viewport. As a consequence, is was hard to see. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>There are challenges in designing a AC system for small subs. Ideally, it would be self contained and easily removed for service. The unit is going to have a reservoir for capturing quite a bit of condensed water extracted over say a 6 hour design mission time. For my boat the unit would need to be small and compact. Would be nice if we could find a OTS small compact AC unit that was DC powered. </div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>If any one knows of a small compact AC unit, send me the link. I would like to test in my boat.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Cliff</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div>
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On Monday, April 1, 2019, 3:26:25 PM CDT, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:
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And it occurred to me, while we discussed air conditioning systems on our personal subs, we were likely the only three people on the planet having that conversation. 'Tis a small collection of fellow adventurers.<br clear="none">
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Brian <br clear="none">
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Owner of Harold, the wonder K350 and<br clear="none">
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Maude, the Porta Bote extraordinaire<br clear="none">
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Yes, Harold and Maude .... <br clear="none">
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Get <a shape="rect" href="https://aka.ms/ghei36" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Outlook for Android</a></div>
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