<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Hi Alec,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I like that idea of setting the speed on the vertical thrusters, however</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I believe GL requires spring to centre joysticks so that if you are incapacitated</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">or whatever, you don't keep going down. Maybe I could appease this regulation</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">by having a timer that requires a push of a button once a minute to continue</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">at this speed. ( like a dead man's switch) There will be the back up of some</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">maximum depth control logic.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 28/02/2018, at 11:37 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="ltr">Hi Alan,<div><br></div><div>I haven't used a joystick yet, but on Snoopy I used to dive with the vertical thrusters locked and to control them I used a little pot on the handheld controls. Many joysticks have a knob or thumb wheel, and I'd suggest either would be ideal for the vertical thrusters. It worked well because the vertical thrusters tend to spend a lot of time running at constant speed, being whatever speed keeps you at the same depth (I would dive slightly positive). Or for diving and surfacing, you crank the vertical thrusters up or down and leave them that way. In short, it's the one input that tends to stay constant, so the joystick is probably best used for what requires ongoing input. That, normally, is movement in a horizontal plane because most of the time one is following the bottom. You could wire the joystick to move the sub exactly the way the stick is moved. Stick forward to move forward, stick sideways to crab, and stick twist to rotate in place. The PLC could mix all these inputs to net out the signal to each thruster. </div><div><br></div><div>Best,</div><div>Alec</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 1:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div><span></span></div><div><div>Cliff,</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">thanks, this thread is helping me to formulate a few ideas.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">I wasn't going with a " flyer" but am now re-thinking this.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">Being a one person submersible no doubt it will have a low centre of buoyancy. </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">If I have a small 2 axis joystick for vertical thruster control on the</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">top of my main horizontal thruster 2 axis joystick, ( similar to David's</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">controller with the chinaman's hat being the vertical control )</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">then I will be able to roll using the X axis. I could fine tune this by </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">having the opposite thruster operate in reverse to a varying degree.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">At the press of a button I could go out of flight mode by having the X axis</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">input turned off. If you are familiar with the radio control World, they</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">have loads of programable control functions relating to the output</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">from the joysticks.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">As for any design; "no". I have a general direction reflected in my</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">original CAD design but are going to get all the internal & external components</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">together & fit them in a full sized mock up before I finalise the hull & external </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">structure.</div><span class=""><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="m_8106968340958826090AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPad</div></span><span class=""><div><br>On 28/02/2018, at 6:39 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div></span><blockquote type="cite"><div><span class=""><div dir="ltr"><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><p style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><font color="#000000">Alan I agree with Sean, the fact that you will be using a
PLC gives you a lot of flexibility on configuring the joystick.<span> </span></font></font><font color="#000000" size="3">Before configuring/specifying the joystick,
you have to decide if this a “typical” submersible or </font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">“flyer”.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3">
</font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">Typical would be like a “K” boat in which there is a large spread
between CB and CG so that by design you do not want roll control but you would
like sway and heave control.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">A “flyer”
is a submersible in which the CB-CG spread is low and the intent is to be able
to control both pitch and roll via the joystick but not sway. </font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">My boat is a “flyer” and the design intent was
to be able to mimic the stick movement in a plane, i.e., port/starboard
movement of the joystick would give roll control, and bow/stern movement of the
joystick pitch control.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">For my boat I
have forward/backward and speed control via a foot pedal.</font><font size="3"><font color="#000000"><span> </span><span> </span></font></font><font color="#000000" size="3">I have
gone through a number of orientations of my joystick.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">Originally I used a 3-axis joystick with
analog buttons from Suregrip Controls out of Canada <a href="http://www.suregripcontrols.com/sure-grip-products" target="_blank">http://www.suregripcontrols.<wbr>com/sure-grip-products</a> .</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">They can configure just about anything you
want.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">Good quality and heavy duty but a
bit pricey.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">I ended up pulling it out
when I relocated the joystick away from a center stick location to the side to
make it easier on the pilot getting in and out.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3">
</font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">The operating envelope of this joystick was just too large in this new
location.</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">I currently use a mini three axis
from CH products I ordered from digikey. </font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span><font color="#000000" size="3">See </font></font><a href="https://www.digikey.com/products/en?keywords=679-2264-nd" target="_blank"><font color="#0000ff" face="Calibri" size="3">https://www.digikey.com/<wbr>products/en?keywords=679-2264-<wbr>nd</font></a><font face="Calibri"><font color="#000000" size="3">
</font><span><font color="#000000" size="3"> </font></span></font></p><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font><div style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><font color="#000000">So before we go too far with this thread, we need to know what
is the design intent of the boat you are designing, i.e.,<span> </span></font></font><font color="#000000" size="3">“typical” or “flyer”? Got any drawings you want to share?<div style="margin:0in 0in 10pt"><br></div><font color="#000000" face="Calibri" size="3">Cliff</font></font></font></div><font color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</font></div></span><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote"><span class="">On Tue, Feb 27, 2018 at 2:54 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>></span> wrote:<br></span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><span class=""><div>Thanks Ian,</div><div>I have had a look at that style with the extra axis controlled by a twisting</div><div>of the handle. The X & Y axis for the horizontal thrusters is ok & quite intuitive,</div><div>you basically point the stick in the direction you want to go & the further</div><div>from centre you push it the faster you go in that direction.</div><div> I am trying to find something just as intuitive for the vertical thrusters, ie.</div><div>you push the stick upward you go up, you push it down, you go down!</div><div>I haven't been able to find a combination like that. The game flight controllers</div><div>come close, as does David's flight controller with the small joy stick at the</div><div>top of the main joy stick shaft. </div><div>I don't want a large central joystick & intend to have a smaller one at the end</div><div>of an arm rest on one side. A bit like how it is set up in Graham Hawkes</div><div>Dragon submersible except all the controls on one side. (In the attached photo</div><div>the controllers are just out of view)</div><div>On my ambient I control it with a $30- play station 2 controller. For controlling</div><div>thrusters you don't need a huge degree of accuracy, if you want subtle control</div><div>at low speed to hover you can program that in as they do on radio control</div><div>units, to get more sensitivity at low speeds.</div><div>Alan</div></span><div><div class="h5"><div><image1.JPG><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div>Sent from my iPad</div></div><div><br>On 27/02/2018, at 8:50 PM, irox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div><div><br></div><div>I was thinking of going with something like this:</div><span style="font-size:13px"><a href="https://p3america.com/zc/try100.pdf" target="_blank">https://p3america.com/zc/try10<wbr>0.pdf</a></span><div>3-axis version probably, providing "yaw" control. Price range is $120-$300 depending on model/options.</div><div>This version will also give a more analog type control, so how far the joystick is moved in a direction,</div><div>can be used as a signal for things percentage of power/thrust, or relative position of a control surface.</div><div><span style="font-size:10pt"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:10pt">There are cheaper options (~$70 range), but these will tend to use micro-switches or momentary-switches,</span></div><div><span style="font-size:10pt">which will only provide an on/off signal for a particular direction.</span></div><div><span style="font-size:10pt"><br></span></div><div><span style="font-size:10pt">Cheers,</span></div><div><span style="font-size:10pt"> Ian.</span></div><div><blockquote style="color:black;padding-left:5px;font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;text-decoration:none;margin-left:0px;border-left-color:rgb(0,0,255);border-left-width:2px;border-left-style:solid">-----Original Message-----
<br>From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <u></u>
<br>Sent: Feb 26, 2018 8:26 PM
<br>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <u></u>
<br>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Joystick
<br><br><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><u></u><div>Well there is this product....</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature"><h3 class="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187a-spacing-mini m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187a-text-bold" style="padding:0px 0px 4px;line-height:1.255;margin-top:0px;margin-right:0px;margin-bottom:6px!important;margin-left:0px;box-sizing:border-box"><font size="3"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Logitech G Saitek X52 Flight Control System</span></font></h3><div><font size="3"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)">Has everything you'd want; 3x2 axis functions, there is even a safety cover over the missile button!</span></font></div><div><font size="3"><span style="background-color:rgba(255,255,255,0)"><br></span></font></div><img id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187D0760A35-3F5E-4A49-9E4B-893E2072DFA1" alt="image1.JPG" src="cid:"><img id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187C0F1ED75-0345-43D6-8B09-C36993E5D7C7" alt="image2.JPG" src="cid:"><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 27/02/2018, at 3:16 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><u></u><div>Thanks Sean & David,</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">hadn't thought of having fixed depth control. Am going to have a depth</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">limiting function with a limitation on max depth & a diving limit for novices</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">set on the HMI. Amazing what you can add on just with a bit of programming.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">Have looked at 1000s of joysticks but can't find what I want. The unit that David</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">has comes close with that Chinaman's hat 2 axis joystick on top. But too big.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">David when you mount it on another 2 axis system you will be up around $300-</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">won't you! That's not bad.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">Found a small video of it. <a href="https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=9Uiag2Coegw" target="_blank">https://m.youtube.com/watc<wbr>h?v=9Uiag2Coegw</a></div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">I am feeling more convinced that I will make an ergonomic grip on an off the shelf</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">semi-industrial joystick & add some buttons & a small vertically mounted 2</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">axis joystick similar to the Chinaman's hat. Really didn't want extra work!</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 27/02/2018, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>If you have the PLC then I would definitely take advantage of buttons on the stick as follows:<br><br>Have a thumb switch to jog depth, but as soon as you release the switch, the system uses the instantaneous current depth as the depth setpoint, and implement PID control on the PLC to operate the vertical thrusters as necessary to maintain depth at that setpoint. <br><br>Similarly, use the Z axis of a three axis stick to turn (yaw) the vessel, but as soon as you release that axis back to the neutral position (spring return), the system uses the instantaneous azimuth as a heading setpoint, and automatically operates thrusters as necessary to maintain heading. This will be particularly useful if you're operating a manipulator when not bottomed, as all you need to do in that case is control the vessel's movement in a 2D plane.<br><br>Surge and sway motions should have thruster output proportional to stick displacement, but you might consider a switch function to enable cruise control. I would definitely use spring return to neutral on all axes though (safety). Allow the stick to go neutral after engaging cruise once, but any subsequent stick movement drops it back to manual.<br><br>Reading stick inputs through the PLC also permits you to have a configurable deadband around the neutral position, which is useful to avoid creep if your hand is resting on the stick at all.<br><br>Sean<br><br><br>Sent from ProtonMail mobile<br><br><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Feb 26, 2018, 16:00, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.or<wbr>g</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187protonmail_quote"><br><u></u><div>Thanks Sean,</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">sounds like I got my X & Y mixed up.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">I don't think I need a yaw motion from the rotation of the joystick as</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">I get this with a combination of X & Y. The tractor steering on my ambient</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">works well, & this just has an X & Y axis on the horizontal thrusters. I could</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">however feed the control through the PLC & put in some logic so that when </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">I go nearly full left on the joy stick, the right hand thruster goes in reverse to </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">turn the sub on it's axis. </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">On my ambient sub I have a separate joy stick for the horizontal thrusters ( PS2 controller ). This is reasonably intuitive but takes two hands, & I want a hand </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">free for a camera, HMI or manipulator. </div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">If I can't find anything off the shelf it may come down to putting a small finger</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">operated joystick horizontally off the main joystick shaft.</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature">Cheers Alan</div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature"><br></div><div id="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187AppleMailSignature"><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 27/02/2018, at 11:15 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>I would stick with an intuitive control scheme, and find a joystick with three axes. Forward / back Y axis corresponds to ahead / astern propulsion (surge), left / right X axis corresponds to straight lateral motion (sway), and rotating the stick clockwise or counterclockwise around the Z axis corresponds to turning (yaw) motion. Three axis sticks are pretty common industrial controls, although I don't know about meeting your budget. For depth control (heave), you could use a stick with an additional thumb wheel or accessory axis, or make use of a simple switch, but ramp the output in proportion to how long you hold the digital state changed. You could also have a button which toggles e.g. your stick's Y axis between surge and heave control modes. Wanting single stick control limits your options a bit, unless you're also using a PLC / PAC, in which case you could use joystick buttons just to jog your depth setpoint, and rely on other code to actually implement an associated control algorithm.<br><br>Sean<br><br><br><br>Sent from ProtonMail mobile<br><br><br><br>-------- Original Message --------<br>On Feb 26, 2018, 14:48, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.or<wbr>g</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="m_8106968340958826090m_3825823255339687187protonmail_quote"><br>Should mention that the buttons or whatever for the vertical
<br>thrusters will have to be analogue to give me speed control,
<br>& not on & off.
<br>Cheers Alan
<br>
<br>Sent from my iPad
<br>
<br>> On 27/02/2018, at 10:36 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <u></u> wrote:
<br>>
<br>> Am looking for a semi industrial or industrial joystick for controlling
<br>> 4 thrusters; two vertical, two horizontal.
<br>> I want to operate it with one hand. The X axis will be the horizontal thrusters
<br>> throttle forward & reverse, the Y axis is the horizontal thrusters proportional
<br>> speed for turning ( pretty standard ). The vertical thruster control is what I
<br>> am having trouble with; I want it to be as intuitive as possible & have seen
<br>> buttons on joystick shafts that could be used for up & down. In the attached
<br>> picture the buttons are on the top of the shaft in the left hand example.
<br>> I am also wanting the unit pretty small, so small intuitive, one handed operation.
<br>> It doesn't matter if there is a few extra buttons as I could use these for lights
<br>> or display control etc.
<br>> If anyone knows of anything, or has a better solution, I would be interested
<br>> thanks. Oh yeah, & not really expensive!
<br>> Alan
<br>> <u></u>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>>
<br>> Sent from my iPad
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