<DIV style="font-family:Arial, sans-serif; font-size:10pt;"><DIV>That is some fantastic computer control Cliff !</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Brian</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><BR><BR>--- personal_submersibles@psubs.org wrote:<BR><BR>From: Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><BR>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><BR>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] PLCs (was Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical)<BR>Date: Wed, 3 Jan 2018 21:42:46 -0600<BR><BR></DIV><DIV dir="ltr"><DIV><FONT color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</FONT><P style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;"><SPAN style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">This summer, 5 miles offshore of Islamorada
Florida, I spend 5 hours in my psub with the hatch closed the entire
time. My life was totally in the hands of my life support system that was
on full automatic control throughout the dive. The system worked
flawlessly. The oxygen I used was commercial welding oxygen I transferred
from a cylinder that gets swapped out every time I take it into the
supplier. I use a whip that connects from the HP port of a standard
welding regulator to a Swagelok connection on an external 1/4" SS tubing
manifold that connects four externally mounted aluminum medical grade cylinders
(2 D size and 2 E size). The HP (2,000 psig) oxygen comes through the
pressure hull and then has a 1/4" high pressure Swagelok valve for
isolation. From there the HP Oxygen passing directly into small box I
call the AMOC unit. AMOC is an acronym for Atmospheric Monitoring
and Oxygen Control.</SPAN><SPAN style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 7pt;"> </SPAN><SPAN style="color: black; line-height: 115%; letter-spacing: -0.15pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">All life support sensors are installed in
the AMOC module. These include the O<SUB>2</SUB> pressure, O<SUB>2</SUB>
and CO<SUB>2</SUB> concentrations, relative humidly, cabin pressure, cabin
temperature and O<SUB>2</SUB> flow rate in SLPM. The purpose of the O<SUB>2</SUB>
and CO<SUB>2</SUB> sensors are to measure the partial pressure of oxygen and of
carbon dioxide so that the programmable logic controller (PLC) in automatic
mode and the pilot in manual mode can make the adjustments necessary to
maintain the O<SUB>2</SUB> and CO<SUB>2</SUB> levels within acceptable
limits. Because the PLC has data logging, after returning from the </SPAN><SPAN style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); line-height: 115%; letter-spacing: -0.15pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Islamorada dive I was able to go back and
study the life support system as well as all the other systems. Having
all the life support systems sensors in a single module makes it easy for
maintenance to pull the AMOC box out of the R300 and
install an extension cord for the electrical signals between the AMOC unit and
PLC box and fire up the system on the bench. To confirm the
life support system was working, I had six different volunteers over a one year
period <SPAN> </SPAN>with different metabolisms and
with body weights from 90 lbs to 240 lbs closed up in the boat
for over 50 hours with full data logging to test the system. This enabled
me tune the PID controller for O2 makeup and give me confidence that the system
was working. It would not be fun but I am 100% confident I could stay
confined in my boat for 80 hours and survive. <SPAN> </SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV><FONT color="#000000" face="Times New Roman" size="3">
</FONT></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="letter-spacing: -0.15pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;"><SPAN><BR></SPAN></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN style="letter-spacing: -0.15pt; font-family: "Arial","sans-serif"; font-size: 10pt;">Cliff</SPAN></DIV></DIV><DIV><BR><DIV>On Wed, Jan 3, 2018 at 8:56 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <SPAN dir="ltr"><<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR><BLOCKQUOTE style="margin: 0px 0px 0px 0.8ex; padding-left: 1ex; border-left-color: rgb(204, 204, 204); border-left-width: 1px; border-left-style: solid;">Although I have worked with some Allen-Bradley type PLCs using ladder logic in the distant past, I work almost exclusively now with programmable automation controllers (PACs), which incorporate on-board field-programmable gate arrays (FPGA) on the same die as a CPU running a deterministic real-time operating system (e.g. National Instruments CompactRIO platform). These units are extremely versatile, although considerably more expensive than a PLC. The FPGA, main real-time OS program, and any PC / remote interface programs are all programmed with the same software suite, which while accessable to beginners, is unfortunately not a "master it in a weekend" type of deal - I have been developing for these for twenty years.<BR><BR>As for PLCs, I have been uninvolved for too long to give a useful recommendation. Defer to someone who has done more recent research / usage.<BR><BR>Sean<BR><BR><BR>-------- Original Message --------<BR>On Jan 3, 2018, 19:38, Alan via Personal_Submersibles < <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV><DIV>Thanks Sean, </DIV><DIV>good stuff, I feel more confident about using commercial O2 now.</DIV><DIV>the ABS 23.5 % is quite restrictive. The problem is one rule fits all submarines.</DIV><DIV>In a psub there is less that's likely to cause a fire than in a large deisel electric</DIV><DIV>( like Carsten's). The chances of you emptying the contents of your O2 tank</DIV><DIV>& starting a fire at the same time are pretty slim.</DIV><DIV>BTW have you come across the EZautomation Ezrack plc at all.</DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.ezautomation.net/ezrackplc/ezrackplc.htm">http://www.ezautomation.net/ezrackplc/ezrackplc.htm</A></DIV><DIV>I am looking seriously at it. It says it is fully American! Is that good or bad?</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR><BR><DIV>Sent from my iPad</DIV></DIV><DIV><BR>On 4/01/2018, at 2:58 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV>Per ABS, the inadvertent release of the contents of any single pressure vessel, if stored internally, must not raise the internal cabin pressure more than 1 atm (101.325 kPa) above the normal atmospheric pressure, nor raise the cabin air oxygen concentration above 23.5%. If an oxygen cylinder does not meet these requirements, it must be stored externally.<BR><BR>So, you can get away with storing any amount internally, provided you use a greater number of smaller vessels.<BR><BR>Sean<BR><BR><BR>-------- Original Message --------<BR>On Jan 3, 2018, 18:15, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles < <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BLOCKQUOTE><BR><DIV style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><DIV>Alan, It's a long list ! What I need to do is make a check list of things I have wrong ;-) and then "things I have wrong but can maybe slide on" ! One question, right of the bat, with that O2 not being able to fill the cabin space more than one atmosphere, I'm not understanding the terminology , how can it be possible to release a volume of air from a bottle WITHOUT raising the pressure above one atm if your are already at one atm ?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>I should go around my sub with a video camera inside and out and you could really get an idea of what I need ! For instance I know I need an additional ballast tank HP cylinder. </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Brian </DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><BR><BR>--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:<BR><BR>From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<BR>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:52:57 +1300<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>Brian,</DIV><DIV>fire away; there are a few people on psubs that are familiar with GL & or</DIV><DIV>ABS. </DIV><DIV>Alan<BR><BR>Sent from my iPad</DIV><DIV><BR>On 4/01/2018, at 1:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><DIV>Great info Alan ! BTW I need to pick your brain on some of the Lloyd's or ABS regs or equivalent.</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Brian</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV> <BR><BR>--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:<BR><BR>From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<BR>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 13:22:59 +1300<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>Brian, </DIV><DIV>here is a link with some info.</DIV><DIV><A href="https://www.padi.com/padi-courses/emergency-oxygen-provider">https://www.padi.com/padi-courses/emergency-oxygen-provider</A></DIV><DIV>The best way about it is to enquire at your local dive shop as they will </DIV><DIV>probably run a course if they have a few interested people.</DIV><DIV>Alan</DIV><DIV><BR><BR>Sent from my iPad</DIV><DIV><BR>On 4/01/2018, at 1:04 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV>Brian,</DIV><DIV>I did an Emergency O2 providers course at a dive shop that sold O2.</DIV><DIV>Now have a card with my face on it.</DIV><DIV>I don't know if there are any regulations, but I get on well with the manager</DIV><DIV>& this is what he was happy with me doing before he would fill O2.</DIV><DIV>This was the easiest option, cheap & Only a couple of nights. </DIV><DIV>I think if I went to any dive shop in the World & pulled out my Padi O2 card</DIV><DIV>they would be happy to fill. Also we are carrying O2 so are able to provide it</DIV><DIV>in a diving emergency, so thats an advantage to divers.</DIV><DIV>Medical O2 providers may also be convinced to fill for you if you have the card.</DIV><DIV>The other option for me was to do a mixed gas diving course which is much</DIV><DIV>more expensive & intense.</DIV><DIV>Cheers Alan</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV><BR>Sent from my iPad</DIV><DIV><BR>On 4/01/2018, at 12:16 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><DIV style="font-family: Arial,sans-serif; font-size: 10pt;"><DIV>Alan, What's involved with getting a O2 cert for administering O2 ?</DIV><DIV> </DIV><DIV>Brian<BR><BR>--- <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> wrote:<BR><BR>From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Commercial Grade O2 vs. Medical<BR>Date: Thu, 4 Jan 2018 11:21:46 +1300<BR><BR></DIV><DIV>Steve,</DIV><DIV>not the most experienced but this is what I'm doing.</DIV><DIV>I have 2 steel O2 cleaned tanks. ( 2 tanks as per GL for redundancy)</DIV><DIV>I have O2 cleaned scuba regulators & get my tanks filled at a dive shop.</DIV><DIV>Had to have an emergency O2 provider cert first.</DIV><DIV>I believe Nuytco were using composite tanks at one stage.</DIV><DIV>O2 tank options & fitting options here. (EMT medical)</DIV><DIV><A href="http://www.emtmedicalco.com/OXYGEN-CYLINDERS-ALUMINUM-STEEL-COMPOSITE_c64.htm">http://www.emtmedicalco.com/OXYGEN-CYLINDERS-ALUMINUM-STEEL-COMPOSITE_c64.htm</A></DIV><DIV>You will need a tank fitting suitable for where you intend filling i.e. dive shop</DIV><DIV>or medical O2 supplier. Then you will need a compatible regulator . If you were </DIV><DIV>heading across country for a few dives maybe have interchangeable fittings or </DIV><DIV>spare tanks with different fittings if you need to switch between medical & dive</DIV><DIV>suppliers. ( I haven't heard this discussed before) </DIV><DIV>I have heard people say that medical & commercial O2 tank swap people don't</DIV><DIV>like the idea of their tanks going under the water. They also may require some</DIV><DIV>sort of certificate from you before they fill.</DIV><DIV>Have read of deaths from people using commercial rather than medical O2, but</DIV><DIV>this would be 100% O2 inhaled straight in to the lungs.</DIV><DIV>Phil offered to sell his O2 add system to Psubbers.</DIV><DIV>I am using a paediatric flow meter set at a minimal flow & are topping up via</DIV><DIV>3 x O2 sensors wired to my PLC & operating a solenoid valve on the low pressure </DIV><DIV>O2 line. The PLC will be comparing the 3 readings & going with the average of</DIV><DIV>the 2 readings closest to each other. The PLC will notify me when the range of</DIV><DIV>one O2 sensor is out relative to the other 2 or the reading of the nearest 2 differ </DIV><DIV>by a certain amount & may need replacing. I think the life of a sensor is only</DIV><DIV>a year or so depending on the heat it is stored at. Being a small one person sub</DIV><DIV>I need to be a lot more careful as the O2 % can change a lot more quickly.</DIV><DIV>Cheers Alan</DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR></DIV><DIV><BR><BR><DIV>Sent from my iPad</DIV></DIV><DIV><BR>On 4/01/2018, at 7:10 AM, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> wrote:<BR><BR></DIV><BLOCKQUOTE><DIV><SPAN>I tried to search the archives but it wasn't very friendly. Sorry to again ask about something I know has probably been discussed.</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>I wanted to double ck. my O2 strategy. After some investigation it seems I will buy a new steel high pressure oxygen tank for external mounting. My plan is to have it refilled with "commercial grade" O2 vs. medical grade 02. As long as I keep my "personal" tank and not allow the filler to swap tanks I should create a "chain of custody" that will help me feel good about not having contamination.</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>I am wondering how others are managing.</SPAN><BR><SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN>Thanks,</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Steve</SPAN><BR><SPAN>_______________________________________________</SPAN><BR><SPAN>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</SPAN><BR><SPAN><A href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</A></SPAN><BR><SPAN><A href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</A></SPAN><BR></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>_______________________________________________
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