<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>The thought occurred to me that you could estimate the air volume in</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">your sub by releasing a certain amount of pressure from an air tank,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">measuring the increase in pressure inside the hull & then do some maths.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I guess the accuracy depends on the accuracy of your contents gauge & </div><div id="AppleMailSignature">barometer.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Alan</div><div id="AppleMailSignature"><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 27/12/2017, at 12:14 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>Just checked the GL rules on storage of O2 bottles inside the hull.</div><div>As River says, if the contents escape it shouldn't be able to increase the pressure </div><div>in the sub above 1 atm. But also it must not increase the O2 content of the</div><div>air above 25% per volume. An O2 tank that could potentially increase the</div> pressure in your sub by 1atm would increase the O2 content to 60.5%.<div>Alan<br><div><br><div><br><div>Sent from my iPad</div></div><div><br>On 26/12/2017, at 10:56 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><div>River,</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">I believe with O2 bottles additionally the volume of the tank emptying</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">in to the hull ( have seen a burst disk go) is not allowed to raise the O2 %</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">above a certain level. Not near my rules at the moment to quote them.</div><div id="AppleMailSignature">Alan <br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 26/12/2017, at 12:39 PM, River Dolfi via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><div dir="auto">Hank, It's not necessarily against the rules. Internal gas bottles just need to be arranged so that the total leaking of any single bottle doesn't raise the cabin pressure more than 1atm, or enough to unseat the windows, etc. So you need lots of little bottles instead of 1 big one. <br><br><div data-smartmail="gmail_signature">River J Dolfi<br><a href="mailto:Rdolfi7@gmail.com">Rdolfi7@gmail.com</a> <br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Dec 25, 2017 5:55 PM, "via Personal_Submersibles" <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br type="attribution"><blockquote class="quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Send Personal_Submersibles mailing list submissions to<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Re: First Stage Regulator for O2 service Questions<br>
(hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
2. Re: First Stage Regulator for O2 service Questions<br>
(roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles)<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<wbr>------------------------------<wbr>----------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 22:15:00 +0000 (UTC)<br>
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
To: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Stage Regulator for O2 service<br>
Questions<br>
Message-ID: <<a href="mailto:473365200.4312568.1514240100933@mail.yahoo.com">473365200.4312568.<wbr>1514240100933@mail.yahoo.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Brian,Yes Gamma has the O2 supply inside the sub, it used to be both inside and outside when I got it. ? I know it against the rules but I prefer the O2 onboard for safety reasons. ?I think there is less risk of a tank rupture than a O2 line failure. ?If your stuck down there, I think the O2 and absorbent should be inside the sub. ?Elementary is set up for external, and for weight reasons probably will stay that way.Hank<br>
On Monday, December 25, 2017, 1:42:33 PM MST, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
Hank,???????? You have O2 tank inside sub??Brian<br>
<br>
--- <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
To: Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Stage Regulator for O2 service Questions<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 18:38:48 +0000 (UTC)<br>
<br>
Steve,I am not using an external regulator outside the hull, I don't see the need. ?Gamma used to have external O2 bottles and that system had the regulator inside the hull also.Hank<br>
On Monday, December 25, 2017, 10:50:55 AM MST, Steve McQueen via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
<br>
All, I am purchasing the system components for my K-250?s O2 system.? I am not a SCUBA diver so I lack some experience with regulators. I am considering sealed/balanced options for the first stage regulator (it will create an intermediate pressure downstream of the O2 tank (located external of the hull). These get pricey and I don?t really want to overspend for options I do not need (sealed vs. not, balanced vs. unbalanced, O2 ready vs. needing cleaned).<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
A couple of questions:<br>
<br>
- They sell regulators that are already suitable for 100% O2 use. How difficult to clean one that is not O2 ready?<br>
- The pediatric flow regulator (located in the hull) can directly handle the O2 tank pressure so I am wondering why we use the first stage regulators at all.<br>
<br>
- I assume to remove as many HP leak sources from within the hull especially since it is 100% O2 (safety).<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
Thoughts/recommendations?<br>
<br>
?<br>
<br>
Steve<br>
<br>
?<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 23:55:11 +0100<br>
From: roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion<br>
<<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] First Stage Regulator for O2 service<br>
Questions<br>
Message-ID:<br>
<CAJANxSMngASvLOuazLz_<wbr>aT8tC5Er9hpmFDxtO=whseh4FDc=<a href="mailto:kw@mail.gmail.com">kw<wbr>@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"<br>
<br>
Thank you Alan, thats why an scuba regulator is not necessary if we have<br>
a regulator and a flow meter, and they are using scuba tanks o scuba tank<br>
valves ( yoke or din ) to transport the O2 and use scuba hoses and<br>
plumbing, not because they will carry air.now i understand, on the deco<br>
bottles we use O2 , the pressure is around 145 psi, But we never down more<br>
than 100 ft thank`s<br>
<br>
2017-12-25 23:11 GMT+01:00 Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>>:<br>
<br>
> Roberto,<br>
> within the 1atm hull of a submarine you have O2 coming in at the same rate<br>
> that your<br>
> body consumes it. The O2 consumed is breathed out as CO2 & this is scrubbed<br>
> away. So there is no pressure build up in the sub. If you have a 40% mix<br>
> of O2 & nitrogen<br>
> or any other gas then you will build up pressure inside the hull.<br>
> Alan<br>
><br>
> Sent from my iPad<br>
><br>
> On 26/12/2017, at 10:42 AM, roberto alvarez via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
> Why are using puere oxigen, i practice scuba diving and we use compresed<br>
> air, can use mix with 40% , but why puer oxigen on the sub?<br>
><br>
> 2017-12-25 22:08 GMT+01:00 Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>>:<br>
><br>
>> Hi Alan,<br>
>><br>
>> Just to clarify, I was referring to HP Oxygen. For air I do bring HP into<br>
>> the hull and there is a 1st stage inside for the BIBS.<br>
>><br>
>> Thanks,<br>
>> Alec<br>
>><br>
>> On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 3:28 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
>> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>>> Steve,<br>
>>> another factor that may influence your decision is how you want to<br>
>>> set up a BIBS. If you have a divers regulator for emergency breathing<br>
>>> they<br>
>>> normally operate off 130 psi. Hmmm got me thinking now; if the emergency<br>
>>> regulator is operating off a line directly from the 1st stage regulator<br>
>>> external<br>
>>> to the hull then it will see 130 psi above ambient. So at your max depth<br>
>>> it will<br>
>>> see 255 psi.<br>
>>> Conversely if you had a high pressure line to your sub & a regulator<br>
>>> dropping<br>
>>> the pressure to 130psi, then if you needed to flood your sub to get out<br>
>>> the<br>
>>> regulator would only see 5 psi above ambient by the time the sub filled,<br>
>>> if you<br>
>>> were escaping from 250ft.<br>
>>> Alan<br>
>>><br>
>>> Sent from my iPad<br>
>>><br>
>>> On 26/12/2017, at 8:56 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<br>
>>> <a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>> Hi Steve,<br>
>>><br>
>>> I use a 1st stage outside the hull. As you say the flow regulator can<br>
>>> handle the tank pressure, so it is not strictly necessary, but I do so as<br>
>>> an extra safety precaution to avoid bringing high pressure O2 inside. If<br>
>>> doing it again I would the reg directly on the tank, so that way all of the<br>
>>> tubing would see only low pressure.<br>
>>><br>
>>> I'm using a 1st stage that is incredibly inexpensive ($60), but I'm<br>
>>> delighted with the quality and what is a big plus for me, it's a<br>
>>> particularly simple design. I've collected three of them by now, and not<br>
>>> any problem at all.<br>
>>><br>
>>> <a href="https://www.piranhadivemfg.com/item/Balance-Piston-Din-First" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.piranhadivemfg.<wbr>com/item/Balance-Piston-Din-<wbr>First</a><br>
>>> -Stage--For-Pony--Stage-<wbr>Bottles--Nitrox-Ready-11738<br>
>>><br>
>>> I do my own oxygen cleaning on tubing and penetrators, but prefer to buy<br>
>>> O2-clean regs and valves. You may notice this reg is advertised for Nitrox,<br>
>>> not pure oxygen. I spoke to the owner of the business selling it, and he<br>
>>> told me the cleaning and materials are identical for partial or full O2,<br>
>>> but that they advertise it only for partial O2 use as a legal CYA.<br>
>>><br>
>>><br>
>>> Best,<br>
>>> Alec<br>
>>><br>
>>> On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 12:50 PM, Steve McQueen via<br>
>>> Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
>>><br>
>>>> All, I am purchasing the system components for my K-250?s O2 system. I<br>
>>>> am not a SCUBA diver so I lack some experience with regulators. I am<br>
>>>> considering sealed/balanced options for the first stage regulator (it will<br>
>>>> create an intermediate pressure downstream of the O2 tank (located external<br>
>>>> of the hull). These get pricey and I don?t really want to overspend for<br>
>>>> options I do not need (sealed vs. not, balanced vs. unbalanced, O2 ready<br>
>>>> vs. needing cleaned).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> A couple of questions:<br>
>>>><br>
>>>> 1. They sell regulators that are already suitable for 100% O2 use.<br>
>>>> How difficult to clean one that is not O2 ready?<br>
>>>> 2. The pediatric flow regulator (located in the hull) can directly<br>
>>>> handle the O2 tank pressure so I am wondering why we use the first stage<br>
>>>> regulators at all.<br>
>>>> 1. I assume to remove as many HP leak sources from within the<br>
>>>> hull especially since it is 100% O2 (safety).<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Thoughts/recommendations?<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>> Steve<br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
>>>><br>
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