<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div>Hi Hugh,</div></div><div>I have been bench testing my Honda and taking temperature readings. I have an area on the engine that hits 150 F while the rest of the engine is around 110 F . That makes me think I need good air circulation for additional cooling as well as for potential gas vapour. Have you done heat build up testing? Are you supplementing the air space with additional air circulation beyond the air consumed by the engine? If these details are proprietary, I understand if you don't want to share.</div><div>Hank</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div id="yahoo_quoted_3727033016" class="yahoo_quoted"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;"><div>On Monday, August 21, 2017, 5:40:43 AM MDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div id="yiv0459872625"><html><head></head><div><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div>Hi Pete,</div></div><div>I have looked at that idea and it is an option alright. The problem I want to avoid is getting out of the sub in bad weather and waves. I have done some experimenting by walking around Gamma to see how it would be to install a motor at sea. If there are waves, I would get wet. One option would be to instal a long motor bracket that can hinge up to make it easier. I have even looked at stowing an outboard inside the sub. I am usually alone and getting out of the sub in waves would be risky.</div><div>The two lakes I want to spend my time in are very unpredictable. If I am towing my sub and have 5 miles to go and a storm whips up, it is pretty ugly.</div><div>I have had that happen when attempting a deep test for Elementary. I was almost going to drop the sup off and go in without it. I got caught in a snow blizzard one time doing a deep test on another lake and luckily I was dressed for it but it is not a good situation. With an engine onboard I can have heat and air-conditioning and sip on a coffee while I head to shore. </div><div>Hank</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv0459872625yqt9230015065" id="yiv0459872625yqt00045"><div class="yiv0459872625yahoo_quoted" id="yiv0459872625yahoo_quoted_3750376563"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;"><div>On Sunday, August 20, 2017, 7:54:19 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><div dir="ltr">Hank,Why not rig a small outboard to Gamma and stash it in the rubber raft when you dive ?<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">--------------------------------------------<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">On Sun, 8/20/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Date: Sunday, August 20, 2017, 6:56 PM<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Hugh,I<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> had two options in mind, well actually three. One was a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> bladder, the other a full pressure rated tank or a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> detachable tank that stores in the inflatable tender that I<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> am now towing. The bladder would be very easy and I have<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> an enclosed space for it already. I also would only need<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> about 20 litres.Detaching would probably be the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> most simple. Inside the sub is not an option at<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> all.You have a couple of high power gas engines<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> in Q-sub ? They must be in a pressure compensated<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> enclosure. I tried to find that information today to steal<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> an idea or two ;-) You must also be dealing with<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> potential vapours.Hank<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> On Sunday,<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> August 20, 2017, 5:45:35 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 --<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 4;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 filtered {}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> p.yiv5065617548MsoNormal, #yiv5065617548 <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> li.yiv5065617548MsoNormal, #yiv5065617548 <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> div.yiv5065617548MsoNormal<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 a:link, #yiv5065617548 <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> span.yiv5065617548MsoHyperlink<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 a:visited, #yiv5065617548 <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> span.yiv5065617548MsoHyperlinkFollowed<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 span.yiv5065617548hoenzb<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 span.yiv5065617548EmailStyle18<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {color:#1F497D;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 .yiv5065617548MsoChpDefault<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {font-size:10.0pt;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 filtered {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 72.0pt;}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 div.yiv5065617548WordSection1<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> {}<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> #yiv5065617548 Hi Hank,I am a believer of putting the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> fuel outside the vessel in the form of a bladder. <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 100 litres of diesel/petrol would<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> weight about 83 and 75 kg resprctively so would be positive<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 17 or 25 kg flotation but if inside the vessel would be 83<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> kg negative and when empty would be 83 kg of unwanted<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> flotation if diesel. The additional safety of having a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> bladder outside is the biggest consideration.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> [mailto:<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org">personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] On<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Behalf Of irox via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Sent: Monday, 21 August 2017 11:02 AM<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> To: Personal Submersibles General<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Discussion<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Subject: Re:<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive Hi Hank, one of the key dangers with<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> gasoline vapor is that it's heavier than air, so it will<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> pool inside the sub (this has not changed with advancements<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> in ICE technology). Even with good ventilation, purging<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> the pressure hull of gasoline vapor may be<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> tricky. You could look at converting the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> engine to something which is lighter than air (hydrogen?),<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> but this should under go a lot of research/experimentation<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> to ensure it's safe.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> There has been a lot of discussion of using gas<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> engines in sub in the past (bionic dolphin uses gas, but<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> this is more enclosed jet skii than submarine), none of<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> which seemed yield a safe approach to<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> this. Could you cut open your hull to<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> install the engine, then weld it up<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> again? Good luck, Ian.-----Original Message----- <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Sent: Aug 20, 2017 3:41 PM <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> To:<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Alec,Yes it may be to scary, I will<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> give it more thought. I need more range, and my boat will<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> not be ready for the spring of 2018. It is bad enough I<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> missed this season ;-( I need a working submarine with<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> reliable range and batteries will not do it. <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> The danger is gas vapour reaching<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> an explosive level. That would mean a leak and no proper<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> venting coupled with an ignition source. Both these risks<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> can be managed. Diesel fuel in a hot enclosed environment<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> is not as volatile but still not without risk. In all<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> fairness, you can't compare early antique engines with a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> modern-day Honda. My options are limited with an 18 inch<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> opening. Hank On Sunday, August 20, 2017,<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> 4:21:51 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> wrote: Sorry to be critical, but yes,<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> from an historical perspective a gas engine would be a big<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> no-no as gas powered subs were death traps prior to the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> adoption of diesel. I always say my subs are at their most<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> dangerous in the shop, not in the water. This could be a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> situation where the drained gas engine is not dangerous<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> underwater but is dangerous during surface transit. And<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> frankly storing the gas outboard sounds like a bit of a<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> challenge in itself. I applaud original solutions, but<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> this isn't one that sounds like a good idea, at least to<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> me. Gamma seems to have pretty good<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> range on batteries, and I recall you're planning on the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> trailerable landing craft. Would the landing craft not<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> obviate the need for an onboard<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> ICE? Cheers,<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Alec On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 7:50 AM,<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> wrote:Hi All,My diesel engine did not work out<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> in the end, and 6 hp I suspect is a bit skinny. I do have<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> a beautiful 15 hp 4 stroke Honda outboard that has been<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> converted to run a hydraulic pump inboard. I converted it<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> many years ago to power my sternwheeler but ended up with an<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> antique engine. The engine is stripped down to a bare engine<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> with external water pump and internal oil cooler. The<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> problem is, it is a gas engine, and that is a big NO NO or<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> is it? If the fuel supply is outside the hull and the<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> engine is run out of fuel before a dive, then there is no<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> fuel at all inside the sub while it dives. An engine<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> compartment blower fan can constantly circulate air through<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> a duct to the outside of the sub. I know as a rule it is<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> considered a bad idea but with careful installation it<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> could be a very nice drive system. This would be much<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> quieter and smoother than a diesel engine. The Honda would<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> be very easy to remove from the escape pod if I need to<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> escape. The Honda 4 stroke is as reliable as even a Yanmar<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> diesel. I was bragging to a Honda mechanic one time that<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> the Honda starts with two pulls in the spring. He said it<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> must need a tune up LOL it should start in one pull.<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Hank<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> ______________________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> _________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> mailing list<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs." target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> org<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"> <br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">_______________________________________________<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></html></div><html><div class="yqt9230015065" id="yqt21797"><body>_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"></body></div></html></div></div></div></div></body></html>