<html><head></head><body><div style="font-family:Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;"><div><div>Hi Pete,</div></div><div>I have looked at that idea and it is an option alright. The problem I want to avoid is getting out of the sub in bad weather and waves. I have done some experimenting by walking around Gamma to see how it would be to install a motor at sea. If there are waves, I would get wet. One option would be to instal a long motor bracket that can hinge up to make it easier. I have even looked at stowing an outboard inside the sub. I am usually alone and getting out of the sub in waves would be risky.</div><div>The two lakes I want to spend my time in are very unpredictable. If I am towing my sub and have 5 miles to go and a storm whips up, it is pretty ugly.</div><div>I have had that happen when attempting a deep test for Elementary. I was almost going to drop the sup off and go in without it. I got caught in a snow blizzard one time doing a deep test on another lake and luckily I was dressed for it but it is not a good situation. With an engine onboard I can have heat and air-conditioning and sip on a coffee while I head to shore. </div><div>Hank</div><div><br></div><div id="yahoo_quoted_3750376563" class="yahoo_quoted"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;"><div>On Sunday, August 20, 2017, 7:54:19 PM MDT, Pete Niedermayr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><div dir='ltr'>Hank,Why not rig a small outboard to Gamma and stash it in the rubber raft when you dive ?<br></div><div dir='ltr'>--------------------------------------------<br></div><div dir='ltr'>On Sun, 8/20/17, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir='ltr'><br></div><div dir='ltr'> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive<br></div><div dir='ltr'> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir='ltr'> Date: Sunday, August 20, 2017, 6:56 PM<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> Hugh,I<br></div><div dir='ltr'> had two options in mind, well actually three. One was a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> bladder, the other a full pressure rated tank or a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> detachable tank that stores in the inflatable tender that I<br></div><div dir='ltr'> am now towing. The bladder would be very easy and I have<br></div><div dir='ltr'> an enclosed space for it already. I also would only need<br></div><div dir='ltr'> about 20 litres.Detaching would probably be the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> most simple. Inside the sub is not an option at<br></div><div dir='ltr'> all.You have a couple of high power gas engines<br></div><div dir='ltr'> in Q-sub ? They must be in a pressure compensated<br></div><div dir='ltr'> enclosure. I tried to find that information today to steal<br></div><div dir='ltr'> an idea or two ;-) You must also be dealing with<br></div><div dir='ltr'> potential vapours.Hank<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> On Sunday,<br></div><div dir='ltr'> August 20, 2017, 5:45:35 PM MDT, Hugh Fulton via<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal_Submersibles<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 --<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> filtered {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2<br></div><div dir='ltr'> 4;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 filtered {font-family:Tahoma;panose-1:2 11 6<br></div><div dir='ltr'> 4 3 5 4 4 2 4;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 filtered {}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 <br></div><div dir='ltr'> p.yiv5065617548MsoNormal, #yiv5065617548 <br></div><div dir='ltr'> li.yiv5065617548MsoNormal, #yiv5065617548 <br></div><div dir='ltr'> div.yiv5065617548MsoNormal<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 a:link, #yiv5065617548 <br></div><div dir='ltr'> span.yiv5065617548MsoHyperlink<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 a:visited, #yiv5065617548 <br></div><div dir='ltr'> span.yiv5065617548MsoHyperlinkFollowed<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 span.yiv5065617548hoenzb<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 span.yiv5065617548EmailStyle18<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {color:#1F497D;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 .yiv5065617548MsoChpDefault<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {font-size:10.0pt;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 filtered {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt<br></div><div dir='ltr'> 72.0pt;}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 div.yiv5065617548WordSection1<br></div><div dir='ltr'> {}<br></div><div dir='ltr'> #yiv5065617548 Hi Hank,I am a believer of putting the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> fuel outside the vessel in the form of a bladder. <br></div><div dir='ltr'> 100 litres of diesel/petrol would<br></div><div dir='ltr'> weight about 83 and 75 kg resprctively so would be positive<br></div><div dir='ltr'> 17 or 25 kg flotation but if inside the vessel would be 83<br></div><div dir='ltr'> kg negative and when empty would be 83 kg of unwanted<br></div><div dir='ltr'> flotation if diesel. The additional safety of having a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> bladder outside is the biggest consideration.<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Hugh From: Personal_Submersibles<br></div><div dir='ltr'> [mailto:<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org">personal_submersibles-bounces@psubs.org</a>] On<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Behalf Of irox via Personal_Submersibles<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Sent: Monday, 21 August 2017 11:02 AM<br></div><div dir='ltr'> To: Personal Submersibles General<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Discussion<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Subject: Re:<br></div><div dir='ltr'> [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive Hi Hank, one of the key dangers with<br></div><div dir='ltr'> gasoline vapor is that it's heavier than air, so it will<br></div><div dir='ltr'> pool inside the sub (this has not changed with advancements<br></div><div dir='ltr'> in ICE technology). Even with good ventilation, purging<br></div><div dir='ltr'> the pressure hull of gasoline vapor may be<br></div><div dir='ltr'> tricky. You could look at converting the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> engine to something which is lighter than air (hydrogen?),<br></div><div dir='ltr'> but this should under go a lot of research/experimentation<br></div><div dir='ltr'> to ensure it's safe.<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> There has been a lot of discussion of using gas<br></div><div dir='ltr'> engines in sub in the past (bionic dolphin uses gas, but<br></div><div dir='ltr'> this is more enclosed jet skii than submarine), none of<br></div><div dir='ltr'> which seemed yield a safe approach to<br></div><div dir='ltr'> this. Could you cut open your hull to<br></div><div dir='ltr'> install the engine, then weld it up<br></div><div dir='ltr'> again? Good luck, Ian.-----Original Message----- <br></div><div dir='ltr'> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <br></div><div dir='ltr'> Sent: Aug 20, 2017 3:41 PM <br></div><div dir='ltr'> To:<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <br></div><div dir='ltr'> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] engine drive <br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> Alec,Yes it may be to scary, I will<br></div><div dir='ltr'> give it more thought. I need more range, and my boat will<br></div><div dir='ltr'> not be ready for the spring of 2018. It is bad enough I<br></div><div dir='ltr'> missed this season ;-( I need a working submarine with<br></div><div dir='ltr'> reliable range and batteries will not do it. <br></div><div dir='ltr'> The danger is gas vapour reaching<br></div><div dir='ltr'> an explosive level. That would mean a leak and no proper<br></div><div dir='ltr'> venting coupled with an ignition source. Both these risks<br></div><div dir='ltr'> can be managed. Diesel fuel in a hot enclosed environment<br></div><div dir='ltr'> is not as volatile but still not without risk. In all<br></div><div dir='ltr'> fairness, you can't compare early antique engines with a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> modern-day Honda. My options are limited with an 18 inch<br></div><div dir='ltr'> opening. Hank On Sunday, August 20, 2017,<br></div><div dir='ltr'> 4:21:51 PM MDT, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir='ltr'> wrote: Sorry to be critical, but yes,<br></div><div dir='ltr'> from an historical perspective a gas engine would be a big<br></div><div dir='ltr'> no-no as gas powered subs were death traps prior to the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> adoption of diesel. I always say my subs are at their most<br></div><div dir='ltr'> dangerous in the shop, not in the water. This could be a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> situation where the drained gas engine is not dangerous<br></div><div dir='ltr'> underwater but is dangerous during surface transit. And<br></div><div dir='ltr'> frankly storing the gas outboard sounds like a bit of a<br></div><div dir='ltr'> challenge in itself. I applaud original solutions, but<br></div><div dir='ltr'> this isn't one that sounds like a good idea, at least to<br></div><div dir='ltr'> me. Gamma seems to have pretty good<br></div><div dir='ltr'> range on batteries, and I recall you're planning on the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> trailerable landing craft. Would the landing craft not<br></div><div dir='ltr'> obviate the need for an onboard<br></div><div dir='ltr'> ICE? Cheers,<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Alec On Sun, Aug 20, 2017 at 7:50 AM,<br></div><div dir='ltr'> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <<a ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br></div><div dir='ltr'> wrote:Hi All,My diesel engine did not work out<br></div><div dir='ltr'> in the end, and 6 hp I suspect is a bit skinny. I do have<br></div><div dir='ltr'> a beautiful 15 hp 4 stroke Honda outboard that has been<br></div><div dir='ltr'> converted to run a hydraulic pump inboard. I converted it<br></div><div dir='ltr'> many years ago to power my sternwheeler but ended up with an<br></div><div dir='ltr'> antique engine. The engine is stripped down to a bare engine<br></div><div dir='ltr'> with external water pump and internal oil cooler. The<br></div><div dir='ltr'> problem is, it is a gas engine, and that is a big NO NO or<br></div><div dir='ltr'> is it? If the fuel supply is outside the hull and the<br></div><div dir='ltr'> engine is run out of fuel before a dive, then there is no<br></div><div dir='ltr'> fuel at all inside the sub while it dives. An engine<br></div><div dir='ltr'> compartment blower fan can constantly circulate air through<br></div><div dir='ltr'> a duct to the outside of the sub. I know as a rule it is<br></div><div dir='ltr'> considered a bad idea but with careful installation it<br></div><div dir='ltr'> could be a very nice drive system. This would be much<br></div><div dir='ltr'> quieter and smoother than a diesel engine. The Honda would<br></div><div dir='ltr'> be very easy to remove from the escape pod if I need to<br></div><div dir='ltr'> escape. The Honda 4 stroke is as reliable as even a Yanmar<br></div><div dir='ltr'> diesel. I was bragging to a Honda mechanic one time that<br></div><div dir='ltr'> the Honda starts with two pulls in the spring. He said it<br></div><div dir='ltr'> must need a tune up LOL it should start in one pull.<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Hank<br></div><div dir='ltr'> ______________________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'> _________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal_Submersibles<br></div><div dir='ltr'> mailing list<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs." href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> org<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/" target=_blank>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> listinfo.cgi/personal_ submersibles<br></div><div dir='ltr'> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target=_blank>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target=_blank>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> _______________________________________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> <a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target=_blank>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'> <br></div><div dir='ltr'><br></div><div dir='ltr'>_______________________________________________<br></div><div dir='ltr'>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br></div><div dir='ltr'><a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br></div><div dir='ltr'><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target=_blank>http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br></div></div></div></div></div></body></html>