<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/><title></title></head><body><p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The problems with rules are: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Over the year they get real MONSTERS.<br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Fiktiv Sample: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Original rule: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev1</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev2 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev3</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev4 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot.</p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev4 </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot.<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev5</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot.<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"> </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev6</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot.<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Before the drop release test can be done, a stability calculation for the sub has to be made. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Rev7</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Psub should have a drop weight.</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">It should be tested during commissioning. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The releaser must be done handoperate and the force to relase shall not extend 30 pound. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">A Inspecteur must on the spot during test. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;">The indicator which shows the force has to be calibrate, and the calibration certification has to be on the spot.<span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none"><br /></span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The company which build the indicator has to certified according to ISO somewhat. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Before the drop release test can be done, a stability calculation for the sub has to be made. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px 5px 0px 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The guy how make the calculation has to be a naval engineer and the certificate calculation has to cross check be a classification. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Okay boys - choose your Revison. And explain why.. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">My point: </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">If the boat is use commercial, is build for sale and or transport payed guest. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">Than it should be revised by a classification. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">All none comercial homebuild can be build according to Charles Dawin. </span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">The bad ones will be select out by mother nature..</span></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;"><span style="font-family:arial,helvetica,sans-serif;font-size:10pt;color:#000000;text-decoration:none">vbr Carsten</span></p>
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<p style="margin: 0px;"> </p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">-----Original-Nachricht-----</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Datum: 2017-07-14T17:33:14+0200</p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></p>
<p style="margin: 0px;">An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <personal_submersibles@psubs.org></p>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5627">Alan,</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_10549">My thoughts.</span></div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5430">Will Kohnen and I are not strangers, neither is PSUBS a stranger to MTS. As organizations, we have attended their conventions and they have attended ours. Therefore, I find it</span> rather presumptuous for MTS to consider promoting rules affecting personal submarines without first notifying us that they were doing so and without inviting us up-front as a primary contributor. Having heard of it second hand through the grapevine as it were, we are now suppose to feel assured that our input and contributions will be valued? What weight is given to our input? How do we resolve disputes? Is there a voting system, or does MTS just accept/discard our contributions arbitrarily because they have "smart people who really understand submarines" on their committee?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Logic has to make sense in all directions so let's try reversing this situation. How about PSUBS starts a committee to promote the rules and regulations we believe should be used as a guide for government agencies, and to be thorough we will include rules that affect commercial and research submarines as well because we want a unifying set of regulations. Seamagine, Pisces, Nuytco, U-Boat Worx, Atlantis, and all research submarines such as Alvin will have to abide by the rules that PSUBS submits to the government...and by the way, we aren't going to ask representatives from any of those disciplines to join us but if they hear about this rule making activity via word-of-mouth then we'll tell them they can contribute their ideas. Sound like a good, rational, logical plan?</div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr"> </div>
<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">I have reached out to the CG and US Navy more than once in the past 21 years to foster a relationship with PSUBS. The only reaction I have ever gotten from them is that they are not interested in regulating personal submarines. So why is MTS so intent on creating rules that restrict personal submarines? That is not a rhetorical question.</div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5139" dir="ltr">Jon</div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5398" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5397" style="font-family: Arial; font-size: small;"> On Friday, July 14, 2017 8:48 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<br /></span></div>
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5303" class="y_msg_container">
<div id="yiv6563331571">
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<div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500042799188_5307">Jon,</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Scott said that if anyone wanted to contribute to contact Will Konen.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Perhaps you could approach him on our behalf & convey our desire</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">to be involved in the process. There were a couple of Psubbers involved</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in the submersible side of UI when I was there. I think Vance & Lance!</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Will had a slot to fill in the lectures & asked me to talk on Psubs ( I declined),</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so he seems to have a pretty positive attitude toward us. As he heads the</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submersible side of the UI he has been a target & questioned by groups</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">like Coast Guard about "what do we do about submarines". They have been</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">wanting him to draught regulations for years & he has been trying to avoid</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">it. </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In my thinking, the only real issue with submersible operations is surfacing,</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">where a submarine may come up in the path of a surface craft. Perhaps</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">some regulations on the support boat having to display a dive flag & be</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">in communication with the submersible, or a buoy deployed from the </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">submarine prior to surfacing in autonomous use.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">In N.Z. you can make a small boat in your backyard & take it out in a howling</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">gale & 5 metre swells, with the one proviso that you wear a life jacket;</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">so I don't think making submarine rules regarding sea-worthiness would be </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">relevant.</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature">Alan</div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"> </div>
<div id="yiv6563331571AppleMailSignature"> </div>
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