<html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:13px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5124"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5176">Jon is 100 % right. Any one that thinks that a commercial organization (especially one that makes a living selling ABS class subs) making rules for the rest of us is a good thing just doesn't get it. </span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5124"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5625">If such a thing became the law none of us could afford this hobby.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5124"><br></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5124" dir="ltr"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5476">We already have the ASME guidelines. Millions of dollars and years of research were spent developing them. Don't try to reinvent the wheel! Just follow the rules and enjoy diving your sub! The biggest threat to the builders that follow the guidelines are the people who won't. The ones who are so "innovative" that they will ruin it for every one when they get killed in a pair of glued together bathtubs.</span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5177"><br></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5177" dir="ltr">We should individually show zero tolerance for anyone not following proven practices. <br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5203" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: verdana, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5202"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5201"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5200"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5206"> <hr size="1" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5587"> <b id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5205"><span style="font-weight:bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5204">From:</span></b> Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Friday, July 14, 2017 12:35 AM<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5829"><br><div id="yiv3762180392"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5828"><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500047575971_5827"><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9802"><br></div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr">I do not believe PSUBS as an organization has an ethical obligation to inform anyone, unsolicited, that their design/construction techniques are flawed. Members who feel a personal obligation are free of course to contact such persons and help them individually or encourage them to join the group. But "obligation" is a pretty heavy concept which would seem to invoke a "duty", which I think is unrealistic and impractical for this organization to take on. We should call out bad designs within our own discussions and discourage anyone in our organization from following such designs, and we should not be afraid to speak out about bad designs when we are solicited to opine about them whether privately or publicly. </div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr">PSUBS already has guidelines for design, construction, and operation of submarines for recreational use. We have an online mechanism for members to contribute additions, revisions, and removal of those guidelines. See PSUBS.ORG > Resources & Reference > Guidelines & Standards > PSUBS Guidelines. I would love to see more people become more involved with this part of the business.</div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr">Regarding MUV MTS, you will have a difficult time convincing me that they are acting in the best interest of the underwater community as a whole. Do you not find it strange that PSUBS, which has existed for 21 years and undoubtedly is the largest organization representing recreational use submarines has never been invited to participate in this "safety board"? I remember well, when PSUBS first started and many in the underwater industry, particularly those associated with manned underwater vehicles of the Marine Technology Society considered PSUBS a bunch of nutjobs, weekend warriors, who were going to endanger the entire industry because we were all idiots with no discipline. Unfortunately, some in MTS have never changed their initial opinion of PSUBS and would like nothing more than if PSUBS just disappeared. There is little in common operationally between the MTS community and the PSUBS community. Their primary markets are commercial, research, and professional piloting; ours is personal use by individuals. I have been to numerous UI conventions and the only time they talk personal submarines is when PSUBS goes there to present a topic on it. The idea that they now seek to set rules affecting our submarines, without our input, is particularly distasteful to me especially since they are so terrified of the government setting rules upon them without their input. The idea that the Coast Guard and/or government is so close to handcuffing the industry that we have to come up with unifying rules and regulations, including marking home-builts as "experimental" has only ever been out of the mouths of MTS. A couple of years ago (I will have to track down the email) I was contacted by someone who was pushing the same MTS story about how the Coast Guard was one accident away from destroying the industry with rules and regulations, and how MTS was going to cure it with a unified set of rules for all submarines. I was even given the name of the CG official who supposedly was speaking to MTS about the urgent need for such rules, "or else". I contacted that CG official and quite contrary they were in no hurry for such rules and didn't even want to be involved with enforcing such rules. My message to MTS and other industry partners is this, no entity is in a position to better represent the unique issues of submarines used for personal purposes than PSUBS. No rules submitted to the CG or other government agency will be adopted without public input and when that occurs PSUBS will fight to protect our own interests, specifically that the Coast Guard adopt PSUBS rules and regulations for personal submarines. And more specifically, submarines for personal use are NOT going to required to have "experimental" emblazoned upon them. THAT, is a suggestion by some in MTS to protect their own business interests, not to better serve the underwater community.</div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr">Jon</div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"> </div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"><br></div><div id="yiv3762180392yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1500000899088_9682" dir="ltr"><br></div></div></div></div>_______________________________________________<br>Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br><a ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br>
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