<html><head></head><body><p dir="ltr">Rick - he's talking about cases where there is no bladder implemented, other than a flexible PVC hose which is intended to serve the compensation function when the required volume is low. Counter intuitively, even with a so-called "flexible" hose, the internal volume can be quite rigid against external pressure because the cross section is round and dimensionally stable. If you partially crimp such a hose, you put it out of round and essentially initiate its "collapse", allowing it to serve the compensation function instead of merely resisting the external pressure. If you add a conventional bladder shaped oil reservoir, (e.g. hot water bottle) your plumbing doesn't need to be flexible because the bladder has no strength against external pressure.</p>
<p dir="ltr">Sean<br>
</p>
<br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On December 5, 2016 3:04:54 PM MST, Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<div dir="ltr">Alan,<div><br /></div><div>I am confused (which doesn't take much) but you talk about doing a test to collapse a PVC hose. I assume that the hose leads from an oil filled vessel to a bladder both being completely filled with a dielectric fluid/oil. So I was thinking that the hose and bladder were to allow for slight expansion as the oil warms up from use so that the factory prop shaft 0 rings would not be extruded outward from excess pressure?. This is based on there being NO air in the vessel, hose or bladder. I didn't realize that there were two 0 rings on the Minn-Kota prop shaft so I do see what you are saying about the outer most 0 ring pushing in with increased pressure. The way I understand it though is if you have ANY air in the system than you are defeating the purpose of having a hose and bladder, correct?</div><div><br /></div><div>Rick</div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br /><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 5, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Alan James via
Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br /><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div><div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6107" dir="ltr"><span id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6147">Some compensating thoughts.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6131" />On James Cameron's sub they used IV drip bags. I am not sure what they were compensating.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6132" />These come with various means of hose attachment.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6133" /> With regard to the wrap around hose method; I did some
calculations on a standard pvc hose, & surprisingly<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6134" />the colapse pressure was around 100psi. I am sure one of Nuytco's technicians told me they crimped the hose <br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6135" />that was compensating their lights, to initiate the collapse of the hose for compensation.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6136" /> The industry standard for thrusters seems to be around 4psi internal overpressure,<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6137" />but the compensators they use for this are relatively expensive. Hugh came up with<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6138" />the novel idea of using a releiving regulator set at 4psi (Parker PR364). Cliff is using this.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6139" />This could be used for air or oil compensation.<br
id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6140" /> The seals need oil for lubrication, & I have read that they can use about a teaspoon a day. Based<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6141" />on that I would have some sort of reservoir.<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6142" /> Depending on the motor it may be tricky to get all the air out. If you have a bearing in a bore<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6143" />followed by a seal, the air / oil would have to move through the bearing which may be a sealed type<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6144" />or packed with grease. The Minn kotta diagrams I have seen show 2 seals; so how do you get oil or<br id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6145" />ambient pressure between those? One will fail when you exceed it's pressure limit.<br
id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6146" />Alan</span></div><div class="m_930479233770990356qtdSeparateBR" id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6102"><br /><br /></div><div class="m_930479233770990356yahoo_quoted" id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_5976" style="display:block"> <div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_5975" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_5974" style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"> <div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_5973" dir="ltr"> <font id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6101" face="Arial" size="2"> </font><hr size="1" /><font id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6101" face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span
style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr />org</a>><br /> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr />org</a>> <br /> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, December 6, 2016 4:44 AM<br /> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Motor modification<br /> </font> </div> <div class="m_930479233770990356y_msg_container" id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_5977"><br /><div id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751"><div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6100"><span class=""><div id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6099" dir="ltr"><div
id="m_930479233770990356yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480960841168_6098">Hi Antoine\Hank.</div><div><br clear="none" />Thanks guys. drinking bladder looks good. I was thinking of a furniture lift bag, which is very similar. I use a hot water bottle for the aft motor.</div><div> </div><div>Hank, what do you use for a bladder?</div><div> </div><div>Thanks</div><div>James </div></div></span><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751gmail_extra"><br clear="none" /><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751gmail_quote"><span class="">On 5 December 2016 at 13:18, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr />org</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none" /></span><blockquote class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px
0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751yqt2460043082" id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751yqt59240"><div><div style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255)"><span class=""><div id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480943301489_15335"><span>James,</span></div><div id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480943301489_15335" dir="ltr"><span id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480943301489_15775">I put my fill plug under the prop, in the flat end cap, and it works like a dream. </span></div><div id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1480943301489_15335" dir="ltr"><span>Hank</span></div> <div
class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none" /><br clear="none" /></div></span><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yahoo_quoted" style="display:block"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:12px"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><span class=""><div><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751h5"> <div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2"> On Monday, December 5, 2016 5:37 AM, Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /></font></div> <br clear="none" /><br clear="none" /> </div></div></span><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380y_msg_container"><div><div
class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751h5"><div id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yiv6057255083"><div><span class="">Hi frank<div>I have done something like that for my prop shaft seal oil filled compartment. But first i removed the hose and filled with a serynge with long steel needle. Then put the tube and filled it with the serynge. </div><div>The tube is flexible and transparent, from endurance sport platypus drinking bladder<br clear="none" />Works well</div><div>Regards </div></span><div>Antoine <span class=""><br clear="none" />On Monday, December 5, 2016, James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank">personal_submersibles@psubs. org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none" /><div class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yiv6057255083yqt4043277881"
id="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yiv6057255083yqt98767"><blockquote class="m_930479233770990356yiv8070633751m_-6973601674998661380yiv6057255083gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><div dir="ltr"><div>Hi All</div><div> </div><div>I have been talking to Rick about motor compensation which has got me thinking.</div><div> </div><div>I originally did my motors like other psubbers have done with the rubber tubes around the sides, but have found them a real pain to fill. Problem is the location of the tube, plus the tiny bit of protruding pipe nipple on the inside.</div><div> </div><div>So, I modified the motors by drilling a hole in the top part of the aluminium endcap and use that now as the vent\final fill. Its better, but still awkward.</div><div> </div><div>I have suggested to Rick this idea, which I am tempted to adopt myself. Blocking off the
existing side mounted pipe nipples and filling\venting\compensating all from the one top hole. There would be a rubber bulb of some sort on the end of the pipe. 2x pictures show filling and operation. Appologies for rubbish drawings, im at work.</div><div> </div><div>What does everyone think?</div><div> </div><div><img width="535" height="397" src="content://com.kaitenmail.attachmentprovider/198d86e3-140a-4752-9d24-e8385b094106/47/RAW" /></div><div><img width="535" height="380" src="content://com.kaitenmail.attachmentprovider/198d86e3-140a-4752-9d24-e8385b094106/46/RAW" /><br clear="none" /><br clear="none" /></div></div>
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