<font color='black' size='3' face='Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif'>Doug,
<div>I did a study on just that idea a few years back. My suggestion is to think of rigging your boat poles at a 30 degree angle off center pointing aft and outboard from each corner of your boat transom. For transfer, you attach the sub on a short bow line to the central tow point on the boat, and use a V-bridle from each pole tip to both lift points on the sub from BOTH sides, which would (in theory at least) help to cancel out the sub's urgent desire to dart left and right, and keep it from wallowing quite so bad in the wash. If it get's sloppy, add a small drogue on a fairly long line from the sub's tail, which will make your tow motor work harder, but should stabilize fore and aft in a seaway as well and will also let you tow FASTER. And believe it or not, the faster you go, the steadier everything gets (we launched 8-12 ton subs at a minimum of 4 knots, just as a historical note). The idea here is to at least do our smaller scale stuff while gently underway, with lines and poles and all that pulling away from the sub no matter which way the little bastard rolls. I'd love to see that tried out. NOTE: Don't even consider doing this with poly rope, which will tie itself into knots, or nylon, which will stretch and heat up and defeat the whole purpose. Braided Dacron line is called for here, even though it sinks and is a pain to deal with near props. Floats on the shackle ends of your tow and drogue lines are essential kit for this set up. Give me a yell if you want to rig it up. I'll drive down and give you a hand. My main concern is that the poles will be too stiff under light load and too flexible when the going gets tough. It would be an interesting thing to try, just to see how much abuse the poles will put up with if nothing else.</div>
<div>Vance<br>
<br>
<div style="font-family:helvetica,arial;font-size:10pt;color:black">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br>
Sent: Mon, Aug 8, 2016 4:26 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Inflatable sub support<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_1.2_ba9c6e45-d8df-453b-9179-cf10b0edc002">
<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div dir="ltr">That is my biggest concern with the cat/floating gantry idea - the sub and tender will behave so differently in any given wave action.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Here's an idea I've been pondering since last spring... it won't help with transport time, but it could potentially make entry/egress safer (ie preventing a cabin flood/sinking situation): The last couple of years down in Florida, I've seen these fiberglass mooring poles being used on boats in the canals. They're like fishing poles, but much stronger... semi-rigid but still quite flexable. The poles are mounted at an angle off your dock. They moor your boat, hold it away from the dock and flex up and down with the tides and waves.</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div>Now supposing we had a couple of those babies mounted aft-ways off the Whaler. When we wanted to do a crew swap, a support diver would hook the pole lines to the lifting lugs on the sub. This would hold the sub away from the boat, flex to make the difference between boat and sub and provide extra support/tipping safety while changing crew. ~ Doug S. </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Doug,</div>
<div>Graham Hawkes had a modified catamaran for transporting one of</div>
<div>his subs. I couldn't find an image of it but it was posted on Psubs a few</div>
<div>years back. I am not sure whether this was successful or not. I am</div>
<div>guessing it wasn't as I haven't seen it again.</div>
<div>A problem with it could be that you would have to manoeuvre over </div>
<div>the submersible, & then attach cables. In slightly rough seas you would</div>
<div>need lateral control of the catamaran to keep it from riding on to the sub.</div>
<div> The experience out from Islamorada where 3 of us were trying to hold</div>
<div>your boat at arms length from Snoopy to transfer passengers, was a bit</div>
<div>of a lesson. I have said it before, but the sub seemed to remain stationary</div>
<div>in the water column while the boat bounced up & down around it, & was</div>
<div>in danger of landing on it. </div>
<span class="">
<div>Alan</div>
<div> <br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
</span>
<div>
<div class="h5">
<div><br>
On 9/08/2016, at 5:39 am, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Alan / James / Dave, all great suggestions, thanks for the ideas! As much as we could all sit here and spec out our dream tender/support boat, I think you guys are wise to suggest the KISS method in one way or another.
<div><br>
</div>
<div>I probably favor the idea of starting with a two hulled (cat/party barge) design the most, but it will depend on what is available for cheap at the time we go to buy :) ~ Doug </div>
</div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Aug 8, 2016 at 11:28 AM, David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.<wbr>org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Hi Doug, I remember the tow out if the snoopy in the keys. It seems to me that bases upon the number of used boats in the area, I'd buy and fiberglass boat for just the bow. Get out the Sawzall cut off what I need, weld up a cradle that could link to hull of snoopy, use Alans ideal of a inner tube, but use it as an expandable cushion between fg hull and snoopy. Your then ready to tow.<br>
David Colombo</div>
<div>
<div>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Aug 8, 2016 12:43 AM, "Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles" <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr">Yeah, I like the simple logistics/mechanics of a rig like you described here Alan. Let's face it, anything would be better than a full-on tow! I'm often big smoke/no fire when it comes to projects like these, but at the same time, we are going to be hurting in the Keys without something to make entry/egress safer and transit to/from dive locations more efficient. ~ Doug S. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 1:31 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Doug,</div>
<div>Cliff was thinking about this issue a while back.</div>
<div>Perhaps a purpose built hard fibreglass hull that conforms to Snoopy's lower hull,</div>
<div>with an inflatable pontoon attached, but with no back section. ( an inflatable boat</div>
<div>with the back missing.) Use an air pump to deflate & inflate it. It would probably</div>
<div>require a winch up front to help the sub get fully on board. If it was strong enough</div>
<div>you could trailer the sub on this inflatable base.</div>
<div>It would increase the towing speed & make it easy to board in rough conditions.</div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On 6/08/2016, at 3:13 pm, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">Alan, I like that idea (a "pump barge"). Whatever we determine will work, it's gonna have to deal with relatively rough seas. ~ Doug S. </div>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 9:56 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="auto">
<div>Doug,</div>
<div>I have seen a number of inflatable pontoon systems for lifting boats</div>
<div>above the water. They all used pumps to pump out the water.</div>
<div>I wonder if there is merit in designing an inflatable pontoon that you could</div>
<div>lower, & drive Snoopy on to, then fill with air & tow. It would</div>
<div>solve the problem of boarding in rough seas, as you could climb in while</div>
<div>it was up on the pontoons. The pontoons would also make it easier to</div>
<div>board without bashing your boat against the sub.</div>
<div>You would need a large barge if you are looking at hoisting in to the water.</div>
<div>It wasn't the easiest in perfect conditions in to your canal.</div>
<div>I think they use a ballasted platform in Hawaii ( similar idea) Scott might confirm </div>
<div>that as he has just been there.</div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<span>
<div><br>
On 3/08/2016, at 12:50 pm, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
</span><blockquote>
<div><span>
<div dir="ltr">Good point Alan, wave height is an issue on more than one hand with Snoopy (as I'm sure you're aware).
<div><br>
</div>
<div>BTW, we're starting to look seriously into building or buying a barge for the Keys. We've got to get Snoopy out to the oceanside more quickly than by towing her. ~ Doug S. </div>
</div>
</span>
<div class="gmail_extra"><br>
<div class="gmail_quote"><span>On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 6:42 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>></span> wrote:<br>
</span><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div>
<div style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px"><span>
<div><span>Doug,</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>sounds like a cunning plan!</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>Be aware that it might work when the water surface is flat,</span></div>
</span>
<div dir="ltr"><span>but fail if there is too much of a wave.av</span></div>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>I'm with Jon on having a descent surface communication system.</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span>Alan</span></div>
<div dir="ltr"><span></span><br>
</div>
<div><br>
<br>
</div>
<div style="display:block">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue,Helvetica Neue,Helvetica,Arial,Lucida Grande,sans-serif;font-size:16px">
<div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold">From:</span></b> Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>><br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>> <br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, August 3, 2016 8:29 AM<br>
<b><span style="font-weight:bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] OTS transducer location<br>
</font> </div>
<div>
<div>
<div><br>
<div>
<div>
<div dir="ltr">'Sound' thoughts Jon... :) ~ Doug S. </div>
<div><br clear="none">
<div>
<div>On Tue, Aug 2, 2016 at 4:25 PM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <span dir="ltr"><<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.o<wbr>rg</a>></span> wrote:<br clear="none"><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid"><br clear="none">
Nothing wrong with Radio comms on surface, in fact you should have a VHF for ocean water anyway. Depending upon the location of the transducer on the vessel, at the surface you may find you don't have enough water column to communicate effectively. Test first.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jon<span><br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 8/2/2016 3:09 PM, Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles wrote:<br clear="none">
</span><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;padding-left:1ex;border-left-color:rgb(204,204,204);border-left-width:1px;border-left-style:solid">
Dad and I are planning to try a little experiment in regards to the mounting location of Snoopy's transducer array. The idea is to mount the array on a hinged whip behind the hatch. While she's on the surface the transducer will be under the waterline for surfaced communication with surface support (if the boat and sub are out of earshot of one another). When Snoopy submerges, the array's float lifts the mast erect over the sub, becoming the tallest part of the vessel while submerged.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Just an idea, but we're keen to try it when we get the chance. One possible drawback is entanglement danger... we've been thinking a lot about that lately. ~ Doug S.<br clear="none">
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