<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px"><div dir="ltr"><span>Hi Hank,</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18747"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18746">Graham wanted to rotate his jets separately so he could</span></div><div dir="ltr"><span>get a roll / flying type motion. So he would need to have</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18749"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18748">two separate intakes that rotated identically to the vertical outlets</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18751"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18752">to acheive that without getting the forward motion & added</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_19643">inefficiencies. I wonder what sort of roll you could get with a</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_20237">conventional set up.</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span>You must have tried that Hank / Alec. Do you get much of a tilt</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_20238">when you have your vertical thrusters working in different</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span>directions?</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span>Alan</span></div><div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18750"><span><br></span></div><br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18757"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18756"> <div dir="ltr" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18755"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_18758"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Monday, October 27, 2014 8:57 AM<br> <b id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_19645"><span style="font-weight: bold;" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_19644">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_1_1414350070247_19646"><br><br clear="none">Alan,<br clear="none">I did not think of that, but your right. You could put a shroud over the inlet that is inline with the discharge so then the pump is pulling and pushing.<br clear="none">Hank--------------------------------------------<br clear="none">On Sun, 10/26/14, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets<br clear="none"> To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 3:50 PM<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> One<br clear="none"> problem I can see is that if you have your Jet<br clear="none"> suckingwater in<br clear="none"> from the front & you pivot your outlets to get<br clear="none"> verticalmotion,<br clear="none"> then you will get forward movement from the suction<br clear="none"> ofthe inlet<br clear="none"> at a similar rate.Also I<br clear="none"> did a bit of research on jet propulsion a couple of<br clear="none"> weeks back&<br clear="none"> what I read said it was inefficient compared to conventional<br clear="none"> propulsion.Alan<br clear="none"> From: Alec Smyth via<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> To: Personal<br clear="none"> Submersibles General Discussion<br clear="none"> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> <br clear="none"> Sent: Monday, October<br clear="none"> 27, 2014 8:11 AM<br clear="none"> Subject: Re:<br clear="none"> [PSUBS-MAILIST] Water jets<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> I<br clear="none"> don't think water jets are necessarily inefficient, but<br clear="none"> if there is considerable piping around of the water before<br clear="none"> it exits through the jets, that's what I was referring<br clear="none"> to. However, even that was not meant as criticism, it is<br clear="none"> just a normal trade-off. It is surely less efficient than a<br clear="none"> conventional direct-coupled prop, but you also get<br clear="none"> entanglement-resistance and maneuverability. <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at<br clear="none"> 10:11 AM, Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> There is<br clear="none"> nothing inherently inefficient about waterjets. There are<br clear="none"> commercial fast ferries using them and getting very good<br clear="none"> thrust per horsepower - better than any supercavitating<br clear="none"> propeller could do at the same speed, certainly.<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Lousy design will of course produce poor results, and jets<br clear="none"> are much less amenable to rule-of-thumb construction than<br clear="none"> open propellers. But whether it is "well known" or<br clear="none"> not, good design will produce good results.<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Marc de Piolenc<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> On 10/26/2014 8:41 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Graham,<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> In the world of marine jet drive it is well known that jet<br clear="none"> drive takes two times the horse power to do the same job. <br clear="none"> Jet drive is well suited to a craft that needs a shallow<br clear="none"> draft. I think you will find it very complicated to<br clear="none"> control and it will be very inefficient. I have been down<br clear="none"> this road, I love the concept but abandoned it. If you go<br clear="none"> forward may I suggest you start with a jet drive. It is<br clear="none"> not a simple part to replicate. The impeller tolerances<br clear="none"> are critical. I have a jet unit on the shelf I could<br clear="none"> donate to your project. The jet is from a jet ski. I would<br clear="none"> consider a single rear motor on a full gimbal.<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Hank --------------------------------------------<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> On Sun, 10/26/14, Graham Bayliss via Personal_Submersibles<br clear="none"> <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> wrote:<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] (no subject)<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> To: "'Personal Submersibles General<br clear="none"> Discussion'" <<a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Received: Sunday, October 26, 2014, 7:39 AM<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 --<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2<br clear="none"> 4;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _filtered #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> {font-family:Calibri;panose-1:2 15<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 p.yiv9417249292MsoNormal,<br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> li.yiv9417249292MsoNormal, #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> div.yiv9417249292MsoNormal<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {margin:0cm;margin-bottom:.0001pt;font-size:12.0pt;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 a:link, #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlink<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {color:blue;text-decoration:underline;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 a:visited, #yiv9417249292<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> span.yiv9417249292MsoHyperlinkFollowed<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {color:purple;text-decoration:underline;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 span.yiv9417249292EmailStyle17<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {color:#1F497D;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 .yiv9417249292MsoChpDefault<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _filtered #yiv9417249292 {margin:72.0pt 72.0pt<br clear="none"> 72.0pt<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> 72.0pt;}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 div.yiv9417249292WordSection1<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> {}<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> #yiv9417249292 Hi I am near the end of my build<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> of my k350 and have started to look at new designs I<br clear="none"> am<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> interested in building a flyer sub and have come up with<br clear="none"> a<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> design which will include a vectored motor drive this<br clear="none"> will<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> enable my flyer to hover and stop where ever I want. I<br clear="none"> have<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> designed a motor unit which will drive a fan type<br clear="none"> propeller<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> as an intake this will force water to the rear of the<br clear="none"> unit<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> where it is compressed then it is forced into<br clear="none"> ducting<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> which will take the water to four nozzles on the side<br clear="none"> of<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> the craft. The nozzles are able to turn three hundred<br clear="none"> and<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> sixty degrees both side are independent of one another<br clear="none"> so<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> rolls will be achievable. The reason for a vectored motor<br clear="none"> is<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> you only need one motor source and one power pack this<br clear="none"> will<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> ease the maintenance and increase the enjoyment of<br clear="none"> using<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> your sub. I am interested in the clubs thought of this<br clear="none"> kind<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> of design. Graham<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> -- <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Archivale catalog: <a shape="rect" href="http://www.archivale.com/catalog" target="_blank">http://www.archivale.com/catalog</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Polymath weblog: <a shape="rect" href="http://www.archivale.com/weblog" target="_blank">http://www.archivale.com/weblog</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Translations (ProZ profile): <a shape="rect" href="http://www.proz.com/profile/639380" target="_blank">http://www.proz.com/profile/639380</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Translations (BeWords profile): <a shape="rect" href="http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc" target="_blank">http://www.bewords.com/Marc-dePiolenc</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Ducted fans: <a shape="rect" href="http://massflow.archivale.com/" target="_blank">http://massflow.archivale.com/</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><div class="qtdSeparateBR"><br><br></div><div class="yqt5341101350" id="yqtfd45640"><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> -----Inline Attachment Follows-----<br clear="none"> <br clear="none"> _______________________________________________<br clear="none"> Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"> <a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a><br clear="none"> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Personal_Submersibles mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org" href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></body></html>