<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:12pt"><div><span>Joe,</span></div><div><span>My little yellow sub has a 3 litre vbt and it worked perfect in the test pool. that is all you need for getting it perfect. When I did my life support test in the pool, I had it neutral for at least 15 min. that is according to my friend that was monitoring and recording everything. I couldn't really tell because I had no reference, I just took directions. I would design for a small tank just in case you find you need it. </span></div><div><span>Hank</span></div><div><span><br></span></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" style="display: block;"> <br> <br> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue,
Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;"> <div dir="ltr"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> On Sunday, January 12, 2014 9:33:37 AM, Joe Perkel <josephperkel@yahoo.com> wrote:<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><div id="yiv8453622886"><div><div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);"><div><span>Vance,</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 19px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>I hear you Jim, and Alec on this issue. In order to get that 10% margin or even just to break even the volume gets too big for the size of boat.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 19px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>However, having zero sub pilot experience I do have plenty of experience with a buoyancy compensator for sport diving. Several minute adjustments have to be made during a typical dive to keep from either <span id="yiv8453622886misspell-0"><span>continuously</span></span> having to kick to keep down, or keep from bumping into the bottom or whatever.</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 19px; font-style: normal; background-color: transparent;"><span>How do the Nektons do it? Is it a matter of constant forward motion on the dive plane?</span></div>
<div><span></span> </div>
<div><span>I want to be able to hover (hold station) in a stable manner over a fixed spot for photography, <span id="yiv8453622886misspell-1"><span>isn't very</span></span> fine buoyancy control a must then?</span></div>
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<div><span>Joe</span></div>
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<div class="yiv8453622886hr" style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); border-image: none; height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;"></div><font face="Arial" size="2"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> "vbra676539@aol.com" <vbra676539@aol.com><br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> personal_submersibles@psubs.org <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sunday, January 12, 2014 10:11 AM<br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming<br clear="none"></font></div>
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<div><font color="black" face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3"><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3">Hank and all,</font> </font>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3"><br clear="none"></font></div>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3">VBTs are nice if you have the room and the need. All those dives with the Nektons prove you can get along without. And in shallow water, we usually ran the Perry boats a little heavy and then hung on a small bubble in the MBTs. Aquarius has a third MBT (soft tank), a small one up forward, that they use to tweak for neutral after diving negative. Not hard tanks. It definitely works okay. The K-boats have VBTs, but George Kittredge came from the twenty-five hundred tons displacement school of thought.</font></div>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3"><br clear="none"></font></div>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3">For us, it's pretty easy just to adjust a little as we go along. Mind you, my 350 has a VBT and I'm keeping it. We did a lot of mid-water work with the JSLs, and the pilots could trim 14-tons dead nuts neutral and then just forget about it. Just so you know, the JSL variable tanks and control systems, et al, probably weigh a thousand pounds in air. Fiberglas tanks and pumps and all the rest in a Perry--probably three-hundred or thereabouts.</font></div>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3"><br clear="none"></font></div>
<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3">On the little-bitty side, the Deepworkers have a simple external tank for surface work, which could certainly be used for variable ballast, but mostly aren't. Keep in mind, that is their ONLY ballast system aside from pre-dive adjustments with lead. Regardless, and aside from the general complexity, VBT systems impose a pretty hefty weight penalty on (in our case) very lightweight boats. Just something to think about.</font></div>
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<div><font class="yiv8453622886Apple-style-span" size="3">Vance<br clear="none"></font>
<div><br clear="none"><br clear="none">
<div style="color: black; font-family: helvetica, arial; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000@yahoo.ca><br clear="none">To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br clear="none">Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:39 am<br clear="none">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
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<div><span>Jim, Joe,</span></div>
<div><span>When I test Gamma next month or when the weather improves, I intend to use a ballast bag that holds 350 lbs of water. I will place it where the passenger is normally. There is the benefit of less draft on launch and less weight to haul for 12 hr of driving. I will not need to screw with weights in and out. I bought the ballast bags for other reasons and think they might be the answer. Gamma was built with a trim tank that was removed, so I want to put some dives on it before I decide if I need it. Like Vance says firmly, you don't need a vbt. In an effort to keep it simple, I will try it without.</span></div>
<div><span>Hank</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr"><font face="Arial" size="2">On Sunday, January 12, 2014 7:27:35 AM, "<a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>" <<a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"></font></div>
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<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">Hi Joe,</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">I tried hard to come up with a VBT system to greatly reduce the need to load or unload lead to adjust or compensate for passenger/no-passenger and the variability in the weight of the pilot or passenger. That would have meant adding 25-30 gallons of VBT capacity to whatever VBT capacity was already planned. It also meant that VBT would have to be located at the same position fore/aft as the passenger. Picture in your mind the size of a 30-gallon drum. Whether the VBT was internal or external it was very apparent that it just wasn't workable.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Adding/subtracting lead externally isn't so hard when the sub is on the trailer, but i</font><font size="3">t's difficult when the sub is in the water. In the end the simplest, most convenient system came right back to +/- lead directly under the pilot's and passenger's seats.<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> The only practical alternative I've seen so far for a very small sub is Alec's arrangement for adding or subtracting trawler floats to adjust buoyancy.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">I have two external VBTs - one fore, one aft, so they can be used for trim as well as overall buoyancy. The capacity of each is not yet determined. The forward one can be used to compensate for the addition of equipment up to a point.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3"><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Best</font> regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Jim</font></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">From: Joe Perkel <<a href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">To: personal_submersibles <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">Sent: Sun, Jan 12, 2014 6:18 am<br clear="none">Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
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<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tbody><tr><td valign="top" rowspan="1" colspan="1">Alan,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I've been giving this issue of fine buoyancy control some thought lately. In the literature is there any mention of a rule of thumb volume to vehicle ratio for the capacity?<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On a K-350, the difference between diving solo or with a passenger could be as much as 200 lbs (100 kg). I would think that it would be convenient and useful to be able to compensate for this without having to manually transfer solid ballast (lead). The standard VBT volume is too small to be able to do so.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Joe<a href="http://overview.mail.yahoo.com/?.src=iOS" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">Sent from Yahoo Mail for iPad</a></td></tr></tbody></table>
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<div class="yiv8453622886hr" style="margin: 5px 0px; padding: 0px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); border-image: none; height: 0px; line-height: 0; font-size: 0px;"></div><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">From:</span> </b>Alan <<a href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</a>>; <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span> </b>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>>; <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span> </b>Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement
for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming <br clear="none"><b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span> </b>Sun, Jan 12, 2014 9:20:37 AM <br clear="none"></div><br clear="none">
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<div>Hi jim,</div>
<div>here's a G.L. quote. "Normally compensating tanks are to be provided for a fine</div>
<div>adjustment of the wanted depth and for balancing of changes of buoyancy</div>
<div>because of consumption of provisions & supplies during the underwater voyage,</div>
<div>changes of the density of seawater, taking on or taking off of payloads as well </div>
<div>as effects of buoyancy/loss of buoyancy."</div>
<div> This section covers hard & soft tanks, internal & external, & calls them all</div>
<div>compensating tanks.</div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br clear="none">Sent from my iPad</div>
<div class="yiv8453622886yqt2612426534" id="yiv8453622886yqt95500">
<div><br clear="none">On 12/01/2014, at 9:59 am, <a href="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div>
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<div><font size="3">Hi Alan,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Thanks for posting that. <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">What</font> all does "compensating tanks" refer to? </font></div>
<div><font size="3">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Jim</font></div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial, helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">From: Alan James <<a href="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">To: <a href="http://psubs.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">psubs.org</a> <<a href="" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 5:37 pm<br clear="none">Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. rules Arrangement for Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming<br clear="none"><br clear="none">
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<div>Hi all,</div>
<div>This is my G.L. summary of Diving/Ballasting, Control/Compensating & Trimming.</div>
<div>It builds a little on a previous section "Stability & buoyancy".</div>
<div> All the ballasting controls & systems have to work under previously specified heel & trim <span style="font-size: 14pt;">requirements. Including when one main ballast tank is damaged.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> It has to be possible to check these systems prior to diving.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> The sub must be able to surface after the failure of a compensating tank.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> Flooding & bilge openings are to be protected with grids, filters or strum boxes to stop the entrance of foreign matter.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> All the operating units for controlling positive & negative buoyancy are to be grouped </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">together & clearly marked on the control consul. This control consul is to have indicating instruments showing depth & trim.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> Separate shut off valves are required for each ballast tank.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> The vent valves are to be designed in such a way as to prevent unintentional opening.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> Where diving tanks have flooding holes without means of closure, double shut-off</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;">valves "May" be stipulated for the vent pipe.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> The blowing line for each tank has to have a separate shut off.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> Blowing the tanks cannot cause an excessive over-pressure.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt;"> Where the diving tanks are pumped out there needs to be a closure valve & back up </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">bilge pump. No excess under-pressure can be caused.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"> Compensating tanks are to be designed big enough for all the changes in</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">buoyancy plus 10%</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"> Compensating tanks need contents gauges to give continuous readings.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"> The compensating tank vent pipes need to be wide enough for maximum </span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">inflow / outflow </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">and designed so that water can't flow from them unnoticed in to the hull.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"> The volume of the trimming tanks is designed in such a way that all planned trimming situations can be adjusted by combined filling & emptying of the various tanks.</span></div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">Alan</span></div>
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