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<body link="#000000" vlink="#000000" alink="#000080" topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginwidth="0" marginheight="0"><font face="Courier New" size=2>Jim an AOP opens only under water in a over
pressure situation. <BR>Means air rush out but nearly no water
in. <BR>On the surface you just push the button on the valve below the
spring and you equalize the rest. <BR>Sgt.Peppers has such a valve and
Eurosub/Javasub/Nordicsub also.<BR>Some other sub has simillar design valve.
And no problems with a hatch flying. <BR>Sometime with a to low spring
load they leak a drop- so what? <BR>On Peppers the push button below the spring
is formed as small cup.. <BR><BR>A manual vale like a ball vale can be only open
on the surface - means you can create <BR>a heavy overpressure load on the
latches. <BR><BR>On Euronaut we had only a manual ball valve and a
overpressure situation because of a heavy air leak (a human turns the wrong
air valve and over pressure the cabin. <BR>We decide to open the
manual ball valve during the ascent to prevent a overload on the latches
and the operator under the valve get very wet before we reach the
surface. <BR></font><BR>If you view you atmostpheric gauge (barometer or
aircraft altimeter) time by time and you have a compressor you can equalize
also with that the overpressure. On Euronaut we have two compressor which can
handle hundreds of liter per minutes to equalize or even create a vaccum.
Unfortune on that day nobody turns the aircraft altimeter to zero - so we had no
information what equalize means and we decide to open the ball valve underwater
manual. <BR><BR>I now at least two submarines in psub sizes which had serious
problems with cabin over pressure. In one the hatch/dome plopps open in 2 feet
water depth but lucky the hatch/dome close again. The pilot got very wet - thats
all. In the other boat the hatch/dome plopps open in 3 feet of water and stays
open. The boat sunk. One crew under the hatch manage get out immedatly the other
with iron balls (and thousands of hours as diver) stays in the wreck
and climp out after the boat hit the ground in 28 feet depth. The boat was later
salvage but all electronics and electric was complete destroyed.. <BR><BR>vbr
Carsten
<BR>
<BR><jimtoddpsub@aol.com> schrieb:
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<font color='black' size='2' face='arial'>
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">Alan,</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Right, the <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">AOP would not be accessible the way I described. Under-pressure would have to be addressed as Vance described. As long as the differential pressure is minimal in either direction you can equalize it on the surface. Hopefully that would always be the situation. For equalizing on the surface I don't know that it makes much difference whether your valve is manual or automatic. However if you have a significant OP situation while submerged (say 3 psi or greater) either unrecognized or unresolvable, you could have a ton of pressure on the hatch before you reach the surface. We'll never know how much OP Capt. Kitteredge</font><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> encountered when he suddenly found himself outside the sub with the sub sinking. Whatever that amount was he wasn't aware that it even existed.</font></font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">If the AOP is installed below the manual valve, then you will admit water into the line if you open it when submerged. If you only open it on the surface, the only reason I can see for having an automatic instead of a manual is in case you forget to open it. There certainly could be some other consideration I'm missing.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Jim</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div> </div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Alan James <alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org><br>
Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 7:47 pm<br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull<br>
<br>
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<div><span>Hi Jim,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>I don't think we are on the same page.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>The automatic over-pressure valve wouldn't be regarded as a pressure</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>equalizing valve by G.L. as it would only take the internal pressure down </span></div>
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><span>to what it's setting was, & wouldn't equalize a negative pressure situation.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>Emile's AOP valve & others I have seen have a plunger you can push to</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>fully equalize positive or
negative pressure. So you would need to have </span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>the AOP </span><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">after the emergency closure valve to be able to manually operate it. </span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>The emergency closure valve would have to be open all the time, but would</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>have no bearing on
the state of pressure equalization beyond what the</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>AOP would achieve. </span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>Alan</span></div>
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<div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> "<A href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>"
<<A href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a>><br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> <A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a> <br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 12, 2013 1:49 PM<br>
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull<br>
</font> </div>
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<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3" style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Alan,</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Most likely you would be diving with the manual valve open. In fact you could leave it open all the time. The AOP does the work; the manual valve is just there as a shut off if the AOP leaks, and the handle position requires that it has to be open before you could unlatch. As long as the valve is open, the handle isn't in the way at all. Depending on the latch design, the valve handle may or may not have to be in the open position to latch it as well.<font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </font></font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">If you only have a manual valve and no AOP you have a completely different situation. I wouldn't want to have that setup.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Jim</font></div>
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<div style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; COLOR: black; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica">-----Original Message-----<br clear="none">
From: Alan James <<A href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</a>><br clear="none">
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br clear="none">
Sent: Wed, Dec 11, 2013 4:47 pm<br clear="none">
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
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>
<div><span>If you have an over-pressure valve handle obstructing the </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>movement of the hatch latch handle, it would need to be</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>spring loaded or you would create the problem of the possibility</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>of diving with the valve open later on.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>With the G.L. qualification I mentioned of having 2 shut off valves,</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>I guess you could put the shut off valve at the hull & the over-pressure </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>valve
anywhere on a line coming from it, & use it additionally as the </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>equalization valve. Possibly then place the over-pressure valve some how</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span> that it could be plunged as the latch handle was moved.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>Alan</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><br clear="none">
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><span><br clear="none">
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<div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font face="Arial" size="2"> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> "<A href="mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de" shape=rect rel=nofollow>MerlinSub@t-online.de</a>" <<A href="mailto:MerlinSub@t-online.de" shape=rect rel=nofollow>MerlinSub@t-online.de</a>><br clear="none">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>> <br clear="none">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Thursday, December 12, 2013 11:05 AM<br clear="none">
<b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. summary Pressure Hull<br clear="none">
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<div><font face="Courier New" size="2">I am pretty sure GL and the other
classes like a hatch, OP, AOP solution<br clear="none">without electronics a lot
more. </font> <br clear="none"><br clear="none">On Euronaut there is a manual ballvale as
Overpressure valve integrate in the hatch<br clear="none">and a red label on the hatch handle
"Never open before equalize". <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Its not with the rule because we assume
the operator is able to read a red label - but for us it works. <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> In
case I had to build something with the rules I just will block with the
ballvalve handle in close position <br clear="none">the hatch handle or the latches.
<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Another way could be to design the hatch latches that way on a tread
handle <br clear="none">that you have to turn the whell some turns and it gives the hatches
only a litte opening to equalize <br clear="none">and gives the latches later
complete free with more turns. <br clear="none">In that way you can open the hatch very
fast in case in the batterey get very hot below your feets.. <br clear="none">And you can
still blow your ears drums away in case you like that.. <br clear="none"><br clear="none">vbr
Carsten<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">"Jon Wallace" <<A href="mailto:jonw@psubs.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow>jonw@psubs.org</a>> schrieb:
<div class="yiv8876930501yqt2957037969" id="yiv8876930501yqt83730"><blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(0,0,0) 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px"
>
<div class="yiv8876930501moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none">
Advantage: ABS<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
I think the sentence being scrutinized may perhaps just be badly
worded. With the exception of some intricate mechanism that
equalizes as part of a sequence to open the hatch as Jim
suggested, I don't see a way to comply with the requirement
without the involvement of electronics. Philosophically I don't
think I want to rely on an electromagnet or boolean logic giving
me permission to exit the vessel. If Jim's mechanism turns out to
be to complicated then Doug's concern is valid...remember Apollo
1.<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
Jon<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
On 12/11/2013 4:17 PM, Alan James wrote:<br clear="none">
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
>
<div><span>Hi Doug,</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>Elaborating on your
idea.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>If you had digital
pressure gauges you could have a system</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>comparing the voltage
of the two, & when they were in a </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>similar range they
would activate or deactivate an electromagnet</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>that pulled back a
latch that was impeding the movement of the hatch</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>release mechanism.
(car door lock mechanism) You would</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>need a manual
over-ride. Any electronics nerd could do this easily</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>& the car lock
mechanisms I've seen for round $20-</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">With the
over-pressure valve set at a couple of psi you know</span><br clear="none">
</div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>that on the surface
the most over pressure there could be is</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>what your
over-pressure valve is set at. Under-pressure is</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>not such an issue as
you won't be able to physically open the hatch </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>if the under pressure
is too much, & hence you have to equalize.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>So I don't think it
needs sophisticated monitoring. </span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>I'm not sure how much
of an issue it would be if you opened your</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>hatch with a couple of
psi over-pressure. Would the dome fly</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>open at 90 miles an
hour, or would pressure be released incrementally</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>as the hatch dogs
unlatched before fully releasing.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>Obviously G.L. thinks
this is an issue.</span></div>
<div style="COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue,"
><span>Alan</span></div>
<br clear="none">
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</blockquote>
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<font face="Courier New" size="2"> </font><font face="Courier New" size="2"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">-- <br clear="none"><br clear="none">Carsten Standfuß<br clear="none">Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik<br clear="none">Heinrich Reck Str.12A<br clear="none">18211 Admannshagen Germany<br clear="none"><br clear="none">+49 (0) 172 8464 420<br clear="none"><a href="http://www.euronaut.org/" target="_blank" rel="nofollow" shape="rect">WWW.Euronaut.org</a><br clear="none"><A href="mailto:Carsten@euronaut.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow>Carsten@euronaut.org</a></font></div>
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<font face="Courier New" size=2> </font><font face="Courier New" size=2><br><br>-- <br><BR>Carsten Standfuß<BR>Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik<BR>Heinrich Reck Str.12A<BR>18211 Admannshagen Germany<BR><BR>+49 (0) 172 8464 420<BR>WWW.Euronaut.org<BR>Carsten@euronaut.org</font></body>
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