<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=utf-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div>Hi Jim,</div><div>I haven't been able to find any L.L. Regulations for submersibles as yet.</div><div>With regard to chatting with the FEA specialist; I was in a train compartment </div><div>with 5 Greeks, looking dumb & thinking none of them spoke English. </div><div>She was on holiday from London. Boy could she talk. She did a lot of work</div><div>analysing super tankers.</div><div>Alan</div><div><br></div><div><br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><div><br>On 6/12/2013, at 3:31 AM, <a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div><font color="black" size="2" face="arial">
<div><font size="3" style="background-color: transparent;">Hi Alan,</font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">For a long time in the US all I heard about was ABS and Lloyd's Register (London). Then I began to hear more of Germanischer Lloyd. </font><font size="3">That had to a be a very interesting conversation with the LR rep you referenced. </font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Here's a link regarding classification societies. When you open it you can scroll down for a list of all the societies in the world.</font></div>
<div><font size="3"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_society">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classification_society</a> </font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3">Best regards,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Jim </font></div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div><font size="3"></font> </div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Alan <<a href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 7:39 am<br>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_a80af995-1ade-45f7-8b3a-2f2d754a2841">
<div class="aolReplacedBody" dir="auto">
<div>Hi Jim,</div>
<div>No I didn't look at Lloyds London. I hadn't heard much of them with</div>
<div>regard to submarines. Funny you should mention them as I spent </div>
<div>several hours talking with a Greek Lady while travelling, who was an </div>
<div>FEA expert & analysed ships for L.L.</div>
<div>Alan</div>
<div><br>
Sent from my iPad</div>
<div><br>
On 6/12/2013, at 1:51 AM, <a href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</a> wrote:<br>
<br>
</div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div><font color="black" face="arial" size="2">
<div><font size="3">Alan,</font></div>
<div><font size="3">Thanks for digesting and presenting all that. <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">The</font> summary and comparison of ABS and <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Germanischer Lloyd (GL) is very helpful. Did you look at Lloyds Register (London) any? Was there something that made you gravitate toward GL instead of LR?</font></font></div>
<div><font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="3">Jim</font></div>
<div></div>
<div></div>
<div style="color: black; font-family: arial,helvetica; font-size: 10pt;">-----Original Message-----<br>
From: Alan James <<a href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</a>><br>
To: <a href="http://psubs.org" target="_blank">psubs.org</a> <<a href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</a>><br>
Sent: Thu, Dec 5, 2013 3:09 am<br>
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Summary Stability & Buoyancy<br>
<br>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_2_ffce6eab-0afd-4ffc-84b7-595f8cee5312">
<div class="aolReplacedBody">
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; font-size: 14pt; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<div id="yiv7320916847">
<div>
<div style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;">
<div id="yiv7320916847">
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2431">
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2403" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2430" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;">
<div id="yiv7320916847">
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2456">
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2397 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2404" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2455" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;">
<div id="yiv7320916847">
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2441">
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2362 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2398 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2405" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2440" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;">
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502"><br>
</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">I'm afraid <font face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">there</font> is nothing simple in this section. It is lacking in a lot of specifics.</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">There
are statements such as "shall generally meet the standard
defined</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">in the following unless special operational restrictions reflected in the class</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">notification allow a lower level. & ...Depending on the type of submersible & the </div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">operation area, the distance
between the waterline in fully surfaced condition</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">and the upper edge of entrance openings, air pipes,etc. which may be open</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">for surfaced operation, has to be approved by G.L.</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502"> ABS has a minimum distance from the waterline to the hatch opening of 30"</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502">whereas G.L. states; <span style="font-size: 14pt;">For
surfaced; </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_3357" style="font-size: 14pt;">a minimum </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2486" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">distance between metacentric height & center of gravity </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_7_1386063901473_17" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">of 10cm. (4") </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2596" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">And for submerged, a minimum distance between center of buoyancy </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_7_1386063901473_21" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">& center </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2496" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">of gravity of 5cm (2") (same as ABS). At no stage will G be
above B. (including after dropping the drop weight)</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2414" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_7_1386061802447_54" style="font-size: 14pt;">In the initial paper work sent before construction, a detailed analyses of stability is to</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_7_1386065276172_24" style="font-size: 14pt;">be </span><span id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_3315" style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">included. This takes the form of analyzing the heeling levers of 10 different load cases in fresh & salt water, 6 </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">on the surface & 4 submerged & at 6 different heeling</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">angles. So looks like 120 calculations. </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">Heeling forces from free liquid surfaces, turning circles, wind, ice loads, transference </span><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">of equipment & personal & payloads from working devices have to be considered.</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">There needs to be sufficient ballast to keep a minimum of 10% of the pressure</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">hull out of the water. The draught line has to be marked on the hull. </span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">When one major ballast tank is damaged the hatch has to be able to open without</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">water coming in & the heeling angle shouldn't exceed 22,5 degrees.</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">There is an operational in water test at the end of construction with evaluation</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">of the center of gravity upon which the pre build calculations were based.</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;">Alan</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><br>
</div>
<div class="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386063901473_2370 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386065276172_2405 yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386136859721_2416 yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386231496534_2369" id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: HelveticaNeue,;"><span style="font-size: 14pt; background-color: transparent;"><br>
</span></div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502"><br>
</div>
<div id="yiv7320916847yui_3_13_0_ym1_1_1386061802447_2502"><br>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_ffce6eab-0afd-4ffc-84b7-595f8cee5312" style="margin: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
<a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a>
<a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a>
</tt></pre>
</div>
</div>
</font></div>
</blockquote><blockquote type="cite">
<div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br>
<span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br>
<span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br>
<span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br>
</div>
</blockquote></div>
</div>
<div id="AOLMsgPart_3_a80af995-1ade-45f7-8b3a-2f2d754a2841" style="margin: 0px; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, Sans-Serif; font-size: 12px; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 255);">
<pre style="font-size: 9pt;"><tt>_______________________________________________
Personal_Submersibles mailing list
<a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a>
<a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles" target="_blank">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a>
</tt></pre>
</div>
<!-- end of AOLMsgPart_3_a80af995-1ade-45f7-8b3a-2f2d754a2841 -->
</div>
</font></div></blockquote><blockquote type="cite"><div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br><span>Personal_Submersibles mailing list</span><br><span><a href="mailto:Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org">Personal_Submersibles@psubs.org</a></span><br><span><a href="http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles">http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles</a></span><br></div></blockquote></body></html>