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<body link="#000000" vlink="#000000" alink="#000080" topmargin=0 leftmargin=0 marginwidth="0" marginheight="0"><font face="Courier New" size=2>Sometimes they not accept the material cerificates
of the other agencies. <BR><BR>For example the GL accept stamps on steel
from LRS, DNV or ABS.<BR>But LRS not accept the certificates of for example
GL or others.<BR>The like to make there own - maybe mostly to make more
profit. <BR><BR>Also some of them are pretty slow. Fire and Saftey
plans and issues <BR>for example goes from the client to the German LRS office,
<BR>from there to the London office and than later back. <BR>Can take 6 month or
longer for one drawing. <BR>On small boat with building times of less than 6
months we <BR>sometimes are much quicker in the water than the class approve the
drawings. <BR></font><BR>This is a big issue with the class - if you are build
quicker than they can red mark the drawings <BR> - you run maybe in big
troubles. Special if you have allready ordered the shell.. <BR><BR>But most
issue is the price. If you like to go with a single build small Psubs and a
bigger classification - just double all figures. <BR><BR>We generate 3-4 years
ago a quicker and much cheaper class for small subs - but the sericve is
offered today only in Europe. <BR><BR>In general there are no big
difference in the agencies - more importnat is which personal inspector you
get.. <BR><BR>Brian : <BR>New matierial has to be allways to be
testet, new idears has to confirmed as a "equal" solution. <BR>New
construction has to be calculate. <BR><BR>I am pretty sure a electric driven MBT
valve based on a handheld drilling machine motor will be not accept as
equal solution. <BR><BR>all the best Carsten <BR>
<BR>
<BR>"Alan James" <alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com> schrieb:
<blockquote style="PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: #000; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: #fff"
><div><span>Thanks Phil,</span></div><div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>that's a good introduction to this topic.</span></div><div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>From what I've read so far, supplying the documentation they require</span></div><div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>seems harder than building the submarine.</span></div><div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>Alan</span></div><div><br></div> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif"> <div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, 'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif"> <div dir="ltr"> <hr size="1"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Phil Nuytten <phil@philnuytten.com><br> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br> <b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November 19, 2013 5:42 PM<br> <b><span
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible Classification<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container"><br><div id="yiv0769036874"><div dir="ltr">
<div dir="ltr">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: Calibri"
>
<div>All:</div>
<div>Nuytco has had experience classing with most of the majors Lloyds
Register, Germanischer Lloyds, American Bureau of Shipping, Det Norske
Veritas (now combined with GL) and Cayman Islands register of Shipping. All of
these classifying agencies use as their reference Pressure Vessels for Human
Occupancy section 8 , commonly referred to as PVHO8. Several of these
agencies have additional requirements but in the main they stick to PVHO8. The
choice of who you go with is usually governed by: basic prices for initial Plan
Approval and hourly rates for witnessing tests, materials, etc., the proximity
of the surveyors to your place of build (since you have to cover all costs of
the surveyor if they are not in your area) and finally, the location of the
office who will make the final decision relative to your subs
classification -relative to where their local representatives offices are
located. The good news is that almost all of these agencies accept each others
witnessing and certs. </div>
<div>Be prepared, though, it is expensive to class particularly if you are
only building one sub. In the case of a manufacturer like Nuytco, we can spread
our costs over a number of subs by getting type approval so much of the
initial stuff does not have to redone with each sub, as long as you dont change
the design.</div>
<div>Phil</div>
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>
<div style="FONT: 10pt tahoma" >
<div><font size="3" face="Calibri"></font> </div>
<div class="yiv0769036874yqt2002119032" id="yiv0769036874yqt15380"><div style="BACKGROUND: #f5f5f5">
<div ><b>From:</b> <A title=alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com" target=_blank shape=rect rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">Alan James</a> </div>
<div><b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 25, 2013 7:52 PM</div>
<div><b>To:</b> <A title=personal_submersibles@psubs.org href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" target=_blank shape=rect rel=nofollow ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">Personal Submersibles General
Discussion</a> </div>
<div><b>Subject:</b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] G.L. Submersible
Classification</div></div></div></div>
<div class="yiv0769036874yqt2002119032" id="yiv0769036874yqt42970"><div> </div></div></div>
<div class="yiv0769036874yqt2002119032" id="yiv0769036874yqt43257"><div style="DISPLAY: inline; FONT-WEIGHT: normal; FONT-SIZE: small; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: Calibri; TEXT-DECORATION: none"
>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'helvetica neue', helvetica, arial, 'lucida grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
>
<div><span>Hi Jon,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>I
have very little idea as to what requirements there are in both,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>other
than what I've heard over the years on this site & snippets
elsewhere.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>They
could be very close, I don't know.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
>I intend to read through ABS as well but
for some reason I've started on G.L..</span><br clear="none"></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>I
doubt there will be an issue of competition here as I can't see too many
Psubbers </span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>wanting
to spend the money to certify. However from a safety standpoint there
may</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>be
some interest. And either group would be a good guideline for this.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>I
could start with ABS, but members may be more familiar with them than G.L.,
&</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>able
to comment on discrepancies. </span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>I
think Jim & David were interested in following classification
guidelines.</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>How
far are you two down the track with this? And would it be preferred if we
went</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>over
ABS instead???</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 18px; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent"
><span>Regards
Alan</span></div>
<div> </div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif">
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<div dir="ltr">
<hr size="1">
<font size="2" face="Arial"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</span></b> Jon
Wallace <jonw@psubs.org><br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"
>To:</span></b> Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold"
>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, November 26, 2013 3:37
PM<br clear="none"><b><span style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</span></b> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST]
G.L. Submersible Classification<br clear="none"></font></div>
<div class="yiv0769036874y_msg_container">
<div> </div>
<div id="yiv0769036874">
<div>
<div class="yiv0769036874moz-cite-prefix"><br clear="none">I don't have any issues
with it as long as the discussion remains objective. I have been reminded
that we have a working relationship with ABS that we've worked hard to build up
over the years and don't want to jeopardize. However, we would certainly
entertain and approve of a working relationship with GL as well, and any others
that might want a working relationship with PSUBS. I would also note that
we do have links to GL on our website right now at <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" class="yiv0769036874moz-txt-link-abbreviated" target="_blank" href="http://www.psubs.org/">WWW.PSUBS.ORG</a> -> Resources &
Reference -> Guidelines & Standards -> Germanischer Lloyd AG
(hopefully still current).<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I've never personally
looked at certification as "us vs them". Kittredge used both ABS and
Lloyd's, as has Nuytco I believe. In fact, Kittredge also used Nippon
once. I believe the choice usually comes down to financials rather than
one set of rules being better than another.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">If you
think there's a propensity for the discussion to get critical of a particular
certifying authority let's have it on the member-only list instead of the public
list.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Jon<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 11/25/2013 6:33 PM, Alan James wrote:<br clear="none"></div>
<blockquote type="cite">
<div class="yiv0769036874yqt4526973369" id="yiv0769036874yqt69874">
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)"
>
<div><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>Hi,</span></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>I've
just started going through the Germanic LLoyds rules for classification</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>of
manned submersibles, with view to building as close as possible to them.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" style="COLOR: rgb(17,85,204)" target="_blank" href="http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles.pdf"
>http://www.gl-group.com/pdf/
GL_Rules_MannedSubmersibles. pdf</a><br clear="none"></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>Is
anyone interested in me summarizing the rules as I go along?</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>There
are a few people in the group with GL classification experience who</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>may
want to chip in & keep an eye on what I'm saying in case my
understanding</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>is
not quite right. Also any variations from ABS that people pick up on</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>would
be interesting to know.</div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">I am hopeful this will generate discussion in some
areas.</span><br clear="none"></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
><span style="FONT-SIZE: 12px">Jon if you don't like this idea email me</span><img style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-FAMILY: helveticaneue, 'Helvetica Neue', helvetica, arial, 'Lucida Grande', sans-serif" alt ="*:) happy"></div>
<div style="FONT-SIZE: 12px; COLOR: rgb(34,34,34); FONT-FAMILY: arial, sans-serif"
>Alan</div></div></div><br clear="none">
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<font face="Courier New" size=2> </font><font face="Courier New" size=2><br><br>-- <br><BR>Carsten Standfuß<BR>Dipl.Ing.Schiffbau @ Meerestechnik<BR>Heinrich Reck Str.12A<BR>18211 Admannshagen<BR><BR>0172 8464 420<BR>WWW.Euronaut.org<BR>Carsten@euronaut.org</font></body>
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