<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:14pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Alan,</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Yeah, I'm worried about heat. Keeping amps down through it is certainly a simple fix, no wonder why then the commercial builders use such high input voltages.</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Ive been looking <SPAN id=misspell-1><SPAN>briefly</SPAN></SPAN> but not yet in depth on DC to DC step up conversion, <SPAN id=misspell-0><SPAN>I'm</SPAN></SPAN> not sure yet how that works.</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto" class=ms__id7078><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto" class=ms__id7078><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Yes Carsten thank you as well, seeing examples of rejected ideas is equally as helpful as seeing the successes.</SPAN></div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto" class=ms__id7078><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto"></SPAN> </div>
<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 19px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Joe</SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Alan <alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Saturday, October 26, 2013 3:17 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote<BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>Thanks Carsten, you seemed to have tried everything.</DIV>
<DIV>Joe, the higher voltage motors would have an impact in reducing the heat in the motor. </DIV>
<DIV>It would lower the amperage for the same power & reduce the heat in the windings. </DIV>
<DIV>The heat may be a consideration with modifying a Lewars bow thruster as you would </DIV>
<DIV>have to encapsulate a motor that is designed to have some air cooling. </DIV>
<DIV>As another Psubbers said " when you enclose an electric motor you are creating an oven". </DIV>
<DIV>The Minn Kota would be designed as a totally sealed unit able to handle the heat </DIV>
<DIV>produced in shallow, warm water operation.</DIV>
<DIV>The only thing I don't like about the Minn Kota is there is no thrust bearing for reverse.</DIV>
<DIV>Which might be OK on the horizontal thrusters where there isn't much call for reversing</DIV>
<DIV>them. But not so good on fixed vertical thrusters where you would be running them</DIV>
<DIV>as much in forward as reverse. Wonder if there is room inside them to add a thrust </DIV>
<DIV>bearing.</DIV>
<DIV>Here is a very good article on underwater motors that states that the main cause of failure</DIV>
<DIV>is overheating.</DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px"><A href="http://www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>www.submersiblemotorengineering.info/overheat.htm</A></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 19px; WHITE-SPACE: nowrap; FONT-SIZE: 15px">Alan</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><BR clear=none>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
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<DIV><BR clear=none>On 27/10/2013, at 6:47 AM, Joe Perkel <<A href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR clear=none><BR clear=none></DIV>
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<TD vAlign=top rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Jim,<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>I've spotted these and they are very high on my candidate list. The thing that I've noticed is that the ampere usage goes up with the lower input voltages. 24 - 48 vdc is what I'm targeting.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>What's bothering me is that I can't seem to match the Lewmars power in a motor/reduction package at 4" (#4 Sch40) diameter without going too high on the input voltages.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>A pair of those 185tt thrusters @ 24v with the motors enclosed could go laterally on the stern "Shinkai" style and do the job quite nicely for main propulsion. Probably too much but, more than enough to make headway or hold station in a current.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>It's maneuvering thrusters that present the problem. Right now, the Minn Kotas don't look so bad, but I'm going to see what I can do
with Hanks motor.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Joe<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN> </B><A href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</A> <<A href="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jimtoddpsub@aol.com">jimtoddpsub@aol.com</A>>; <BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN> </B><<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>; <BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN>
</B>Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote <BR clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN> </B>Sat, Oct 26, 2013 2:59:41 PM <BR clear=none></DIV><BR clear=none>
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<DIV><FONT size=3>Joe,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">Here are a couple of websites of vendors which include pricing<FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">:</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3><A href="http://www.westmarine.com/" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.westmarine.com/</A> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"><A href="http://www.marinedeal.com/" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.marinedeal.com/</A> <FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">The Lewmar I've pasted below is $1239 USD per the site. It's all electric (not hydraulic), 3 hp, 92 lb thrust. It's the smallest one they list, and they can get as big and expensive as you want.</FONT></FONT><FONT size=3 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT size=3></FONT> </DIV>
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<TABLE style="BORDER-COLLAPSE: collapse" class=yiv0659450480specifications border=1 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0>
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<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Model</TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Hub</TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Voltage </TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Power (hp)</TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Tunnel Size (in)</TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Thrust (lbs)</TH>
<TH rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Weight (lbs) </TH></TR>
<TR>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>140TT2.2</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>Composite</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>12v</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>3.0</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>5 1/2</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>92</TD>
<TD rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>29 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<H4 class=yiv0659450480t5>Dimensions</H4><FONT size=2 face=Times></FONT>
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<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1><B>A</B></TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1><B>B</B></TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1><B>C</B></TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1><B>D</B></TD></TR>
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<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>4 5/6</TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>9 1/4</TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>5 1/2</TD>
<TD class=yiv0659450480productcontent2 rowSpan=1 colSpan=1>2 7/8 </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT>
<DIV class=yiv0659450480t5> </DIV>
<DIV><IMG src="http://www.lewmar.com/assets/img/products/ss-product-8276-25667-0.jpg" width=151 height=250> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">-----Original Message-----<BR clear=none>From: Joe Perkel <<A href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>><BR clear=none>To: Psubbers Mailist <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR clear=none>Sent: Sat, Oct 26, 2013 9:24 am<BR clear=none>Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Thruster Quote<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); FONT-FAMILY: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 14pt">
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: white"><SPAN style="COLOR: black"><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_20 size=3>This early interest of mine in thrusters has to do with sizing of the vehicle; I need to know what is available to me in order to make decision points before I spend the next few hundred hours on a CAD model. Below is a quote I received for an electric thruster 60 - 70 lbs @ 110 - 300vdc, and a hydraulic one 70 lbs @ 2000 psi and 2 gal/min flow rate. It would be rude of me to identify the company, this was my quote, and someone else's may be different.</FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: white" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_27><SPAN style="COLOR: black" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_28><FONT size=3></FONT></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: black" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_26><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_25 size=3><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_24 color=#4c76a2><FONT face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_23><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2483>Hydraulic Motor only .16 cu in displacement at 2,420.00 each.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_27><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_17><FONT size=3><FONT color=#4c76a2><FONT face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"> </FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: white" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2065><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_8 size=3><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_9 color=#4c76a2><FONT face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_8_1382795682744_10><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2063>Hydraulic Thruster complete with the above motor at 5,170.00 each.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2068><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4042 size=3><FONT color=#4c76a2 face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4041><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2066>Thruster complete less motor at USD 2750.00 each. This include the duct, prop, hardware etc.. Everything less the motor. An electric or hydraulic motor can be installed onto it.</SPAN></SPAN></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND: white"><FONT size=3><FONT color=#4c76a2><FONT face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2144><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2146><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4085><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4084 size=3><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4098 color=#4c76a2><FONT id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4175 face="HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif"><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_9>Electric Thrusters range from 9,000.00 to 11,000.00 depending on the voltage requirements, feedback requirements, etc… I would need more info from you in able to recommend a particular electric thruster to you. The prices do not include controllers. Many of our customers use their own or we can recommend one to you.</SPAN></FONT></FONT></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2906><SPAN style="COLOR: rgb(31,73,125)"></SPAN><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2187><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT size=3> </FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2891><SPAN style="BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black" id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_4082><FONT size=3><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2193><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2188>This confirms for me that I am solidly entrenched in the homebuilt thruster design business.</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2461><SPAN style="BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black"></SPAN><FONT size=3><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2463> </SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_1_1382795682744_2894><SPAN style="BACKGROUND: white; COLOR: black"><SPAN id=yiv0659450480yui_3_13_0_7_1382795682744_2464><FONT size=3>Joe</FONT></SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="COLOR: black"></SPAN></DIV>
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