<html><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Yeah Alec, I forgot about him.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-SIZE: 16px; RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">I actually saw Lake Diver on that tender once. I passed the rig in Key Largo, it was stopped at a marina on the Intracoastal as I went by on my boat. Or maybe the other way around, (foggy on the detail), but I remember the sub and the pontoon rig.</SPAN></div>
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<div style="RIGHT: auto"><SPAN style="RIGHT: auto">Joe<VAR id=yui-ie-cursor></VAR></SPAN></div>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; HEIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px" class=hr contentEditable=false readonly="true"></DIV><FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Alec Smyth <alecsmyth@gmail.com><BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles@psubs.org> <BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 16, 2013 5:37 PM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] DC Systems Primer<BR></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr>Hi Joe,
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<DIV>Actually I would say a K-250 might be inadequate, mainly due to the low freeboard and small 12 volt thrusters, but that you might find a 350 quite suitable. A 350 has way better freeboard, big battery pods instead of just three batteries, and about three times the top speed of a 250 (useful in a pinch given the currents you have there). Although there are lots of things that could be modernized, my impression is you would find the K-350 quite seaworthy for Southern Florida. I haven't actually used one there, just my 250, but 350s have operated plenty in open water. Including for instance Harold Maynard operating one in your neighborhood for decades.</DIV>
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<DIV>Best,</DIV>
<DIV><BR>Alec</DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv2023505991gmail_quote>On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 4:49 PM, Joe Perkel <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>></SPAN> wrote:<WBR>
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<DIV><SPAN>Dan,</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV><SPAN></SPAN> </DIV>
<DIV><SPAN>No expert either, the learning curve is steep here. I do know however that they are harder to control and more costly than brushed, with the advantages they offer though that seems acceptable.</SPAN></DIV>
<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>I noted that very "<SPAN><SPAN>squrrillyness</SPAN></SPAN>" and your comments on that one video, but I was also encouraged by the capability of that motor and your side thrusters. </SPAN><SPAN>The <SPAN>Islamorada</SPAN> convention demonstrates for the most part, my conditions here. The USS <SPAN>Spiegel</SPAN> Grove wreck and others like it for both day and night conditions, is the pinnacle of what I would strive for as far as capability. A maximum 5 - 7 miles to tow a submersible is reasonable and brings within range more stuff than I could do in a lifetime. It just really can't be anything bigger that a <SPAN>Nekton</SPAN> boat.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Obviously the K-350 as drawn now is wholly inadequate but, it has really good "bones" to work with here. Think an Alvin or <SPAN>Shinkai</SPAN> type of <SPAN>exoframe</SPAN> covered with <SPAN>FRP</SPAN> panels, and you get the idea of what I'm contemplating. I have a thing for replicas, and this little bugger could be made pretty dam close and be quite functional.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>I'm liking George's thruster design more and more as I dig further. Six interchangeable 1 HP spam cans in Alvin's configuration, just may do the job. I have to see where the weight and size fall to be sure.</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Thanks Dan!</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent; FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; FONT-SIZE: 16px"><SPAN>Joe</SPAN></DIV>
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<DIV class=yiv2023505991im><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B> Dan H. <<A href="mailto:jumachine@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jumachine@comcast.net">jumachine@comcast.net</A>><WBR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>> <WBR></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Wednesday, October 16, 2013 3:26 PM
<DIV class=yiv2023505991im><WBR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re: [PSUBS-<SPAN>MAILIST</SPAN>] DC Systems Primer<WBR></DIV></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Joe,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>I have to plead ignorance on the <SPAN>BLDC</SPAN> motor. I'm guessing it's some kind of permanent magnet field DC motor... Correct? Typically they are smaller in diameter then a wound field type. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>For my rear thruster I got the last of the three horsepower motors George had. So my rear thruster in pretty much as the plans show. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>My side thrusters are even a bit larger then the plans since I found two 3/4 HP brush type, 36 volt motors for very cheep in a surplus close out. I built around them but similar to the plans. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>To get props for them I called Michigan Wheel and gave them my HP and <SPAN>RPMs</SPAN> and a description of my sub. They recommended the props and sold them to me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>When I was doing my wet testing, I put a amp meter in the motor power line and found the side thrusters were fine but the rear thruster was drawing a little to many amps. A little hand grinding to reduce the area of the prop blades brought the amperage down to the max rating for the motor. I don't know if that the best way, but it worked for me. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Now if your thinking of building a true Kort nozzle your definitely going to have to do some experimenting. Even the prop guards as called out on the plans effect the prop efficiency and so also the motor load. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>You may be better off to find your motors then figure out what you can attach to them, open prop, shrouded prop or Kort nozzle. Anything will move the sub. I have a total of 4.5 HP and I don't know if I could control any more power as the sub gets <SPAN>squirrelly</SPAN> when trying to travel fast. When submerged, the side thruster are almost all that's needed.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dan H.</FONT></DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=josephperkel@yahoo.com href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com">Joe Perkel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=personal_submersibles@psubs.org href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Wednesday, October 16, 2013 2:08 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> Re: [PSUBS-<SPAN>MAILIST</SPAN>] DC Systems Primer</DIV>
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<TD vAlign=top>Dan,<BR><BR>What I was hoping to find was <SPAN>BLDC</SPAN> motors matching 36v 1800 - 3600 rpm, 1/2 to 2 hp range. They don't seem to be out there.<BR><BR>I have matched up brushed motors with those specs at both <SPAN>Baldor</SPAN> and <SPAN>Leeson</SPAN> with the appropriate face plates. But, then we are back to the same large / heavy motors at least there in the $500 range.<BR><BR>You have the standard motors on Persistence, what are the size and pitch of the respective props?<BR><BR>I'm going to just have to suck it up and draw these up with new Kort nozzles.<BR><BR>Thanks!<BR><BR>Joe<BR><BR>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for <SPAN>iPad</SPAN></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></DIV>
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<DIV style="BORDER-BOTTOM: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-LEFT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 0; MARGIN: 5px 0px; MIN-HEIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-SIZE: 0px; BORDER-TOP: #ccc 1px solid; BORDER-RIGHT: #ccc 1px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px"></DIV><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN> </B>Dan H. <<A href="mailto:jumachine@comcast.net" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:jumachine@comcast.net">jumachine@comcast.net</A>>; <U></U><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN> </B>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" rel=nofollow target=_blank ymailto="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>; <U></U><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN> </B>Re: [PSUBS-<SPAN>MAILIST</SPAN>] DC Systems Primer <U></U><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN> </B>Wed, Oct 16, 2013 1:48:13 PM
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<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Those high voltage DC motors are designed for variable speed drives where the power is first line voltage AC then converted to DC through a motor controller for accurate motor speeds and torque. They <SPAN>aren</SPAN>&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;t practical for a battery powered system.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>For battery powered systems your probably better off to stick to the lower voltage motors. With an inverter I guess you could convert the battery power to high voltage AC then convert it to DC, but I&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;m pretty sure you&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;d find it impractical with the extra equipment. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>It&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;s hard to beat golf cart controllers for speed regulation and there&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;s tons of them out there. Battery powered floor scrubbers use a variety of DC motors too. </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial>Dan H.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT> </DIV></DIV>
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<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial">----- Original Message ----- </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial; BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4"><B>From:</B> <A title=josephperkel@yahoo.com href="" shape=rect rel=nofollow>Joe Perkel</A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>To:</B> <A title=personal_submersibles@psubs.org href="" shape=rect rel=nofollow><SPAN>Psubbers</SPAN> <SPAN>Mailist</SPAN></A> </DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Sent:</B> Tuesday, October 15, 2013 11:02 PM</DIV>
<DIV style="FONT: 10pt arial"><B>Subject:</B> [PSUBS-<SPAN>MAILIST</SPAN>] DC Systems Primer</DIV>
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<DIV>Since my Navy "A" school is some 30+ years ago, I need a little help in trying to understand and match up something close to Georges motors. What I <SPAN>dont</SPAN> understand is why is there such an array of DC motors in the 1 - 3 hp range with wildly <SPAN>varing</SPAN> input voltages?</DIV>
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<DIV>If you notice those <SPAN>Tecnadyne</SPAN> thrusters have stupendous input voltages up to 330<SPAN>vdc</SPAN>. I <SPAN>dont</SPAN> understand why and need a primer on DC systems for this application. Can anyone point me to one?</DIV>
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<DIV>What I&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;m trying to do is to slim down the housing, get more bollard thrust from the prop by adding a real <SPAN>kort</SPAN> nozzle, and use a mag coupling instead of a shaft seal, all else remaining essentially the same.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I want to slim down Georges T-Rex cans with similar power specs, but new and improved components, keeping the items conducive to <SPAN>homebuilding</SPAN>, like the housings and mountings, electrical <SPAN>penetrators</SPAN>, shaft seals if I cant do mag couplings. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>What I&<SPAN>apos</SPAN>;<SPAN>ve</SPAN> found so far <A href="http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210" shape=rect rel=nofollow target=_blank>http://www.baldor.com/support/literature_load.asp?LitNumber=FL1210</A> fractional hp and up to 3 hp @ 1800 rpm but, here again @ 320<SPAN>vdc</SPAN> !?</DIV>
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<DIV>Whats attractive about this one is the dimensions, 6.5" on the mounting flange would fit quite nicely in the 6 <SPAN>nom</SPAN> SCH40 pipe which is 6.625"</DIV>
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<DIV>But I <SPAN>dont</SPAN> know what <SPAN>im</SPAN> doing with regard to the input voltage / output power / torque relationship and how to match this all up correctly. All Ive confirmed so far is that Georges motors were <SPAN>TENV</SPAN> (totally enclosed non-ventilated), 36<SPAN>vdc</SPAN> @ 1800 to 3600 rpm for 1/2 and 3 hp respectively.</DIV>
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<DIV>Joe</DIV>
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