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<DIV><FONT size=3>Might require a designated diver.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>In a message dated 10/7/2013 10:31:09 A.M. Central Daylight Time,
vbra676539@aol.com writes:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial><FONT
color=black size=3 face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Not well, but you don't
care.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Vanec</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial,helvetica; COLOR: black">-----Original
Message-----<BR>From: Jon Wallace <jon.wallace@yahoo.com><BR>To:
Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles@psubs.org><BR>Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 8:00
am<BR>Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner<BR><BR>
<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_63c36e5d-6cbd-47fd-8762-cbbaf3e89d57>
<DIV class=aolReplacedBody>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: times new roman, new york, times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255)">
<DIV><SPAN><BR></SPAN></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 16px; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif; COLOR: rgb(0,0,0); FONT-STYLE: normal; BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">The
question is, can you navigate properly after using that system of
cooling?</DIV>
<DIV><BR></DIV>
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style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'times new roman', 'new york', times, serif">
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<HR SIZE=1>
<FONT size=2 face=Arial><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN></B>
Alan <<A title=mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com
href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com">alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</A>><BR><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN></B> Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <<A title=mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org">personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>
<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN></B> Monday, October 7,
2013 10:21 AM<BR><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN></B> Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV class=y_msg_container><BR>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167>
<DIV>
<DIV>In N.Z. & Australia, we have a very efficient cooling system used by
boaties, based on convection. Convection where the body is heated or
cooled directly rather than trying to control</DIV>
<DIV>the surrounding atmosphere, is the most energy efficient system.</DIV>
<DIV>Basically you consume large amounts of super cold liquid which has
alcohol in it for the purpose of lower the liquids freezing point.</DIV>
<DIV>Alan</DIV>
<DIV><BR clear=none>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167yqt85840 class=yiv9243579167yqt0461407613>
<DIV><BR clear=none>On 7/10/2013, at 8:55 AM, Joe Perkel <<A
title=mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com href="mailto:josephperkel@yahoo.com"
shape=rect rel=nofollow>josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR
clear=none><BR clear=none></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
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<TD vAlign=top>Alan <BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Lost in translation
is my having closed that very system in favor of a fresh water &
ethylene glycol coolant through an appropriately surfaced exchanger
outside.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Joe<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none><BR clear=none>Sent from Yahoo! Mail for
iPad</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167_origMsg_>
<DIV><BR clear=none>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 0.9em">
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN> </B>Alan <<A
title=mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com
href="mailto:alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com" shape=rect
rel=nofollow>alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</A>>; <BR clear=none><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN> </B>Personal Submersibles General
Discussion <<A title=mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org
href="mailto:personal_submersibles@psubs.org" shape=rect
rel=nofollow>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>; <BR
clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN> </B>Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner <BR clear=none><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN> </B>Mon, Oct 7, 2013 12:30:03 PM <BR
clear=none></DIV><BR clear=none>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
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<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>Hi Vance,</DIV>
<DIV>From what little I was told, I was under the impression it was a
closed system.</DIV>
<DIV>The system Joe posted the link to is an open system where they
suck seawater in &</DIV>
<DIV>Run it through the inner tube of the condenser coil & send it
out again.</DIV>
<DIV>Alan<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167yqt93032 class=yiv9243579167yqt8740896697>
<DIV><BR clear=none>On 7/10/2013, at 8:21 AM, <A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>vbra676539@aol.com</A> wrote:<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV><FONT color=black size=3
face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif"></FONT>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent">Alan,</FONT></DIV>
<DIV>Are you sure they use straight seawater? I ask, because the
JSLs, where some of the guys at Triton cut their teeth, used a
closed system. Radiator and fans in the forward sphere, pump
and compressor outside, and one of the aluminum structural pipes
behind the sphere as the condenser. I don't remember what was used
for coolant, but it worked pretty well to maintain temperature and
to reduce humidity. I think it was Freon based, so you wouldn't want
it leaking, for sure.</DIV>
<DIV>Vance</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV
style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: arial, helvetica; COLOR: black">-----Original
Message-----<BR clear=none>From: Alan <<A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</A>><BR clear=none>To:
Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>><BR
clear=none>Sent: Mon, Oct 7, 2013 5:12 am<BR clear=none>Subject: Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>
<DIV
id=yiv9243579167AOLMsgPart_2_fab79960-7add-49cd-8de2-eba8f5d48945>
<DIV class=yiv9243579167aolReplacedBody>
<DIV>Hi Joe,</DIV>
<DIV>Not sure if we are on the same page here.</DIV>
<DIV>The pump pumps sea water in through the hull, through a heat
exchanger & out again.</DIV>
<DIV>So I guess if the tubing in the unit that carries the seawater
& the pump pushing it around are</DIV>
<DIV>Able to take 175psi ( 250ft plus safety margin ) it would
work.</DIV>
<DIV>Alan</DIV>
<DIV>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV><BR clear=none>On 7/10/2013, at 7:44 AM, Joe Perkel <<A
shape=rect rel=nofollow>josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR
clear=none><BR clear=none></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
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<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>Alan,<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>The
external heat exchanger and associated external plumbing can
remain at one ATM. The heat transfer is via conduction, so
the system while immersed in seawater remains isolated from
ambient pressure. A circulating pump need only overcome
system resistance.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Internal
ball valves on thru hulls as you noted would maintain a fail
safe against a failure outside.<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none>Joe<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Sent from Yahoo!
Mail for iPad</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167_origMsg_>
<DIV><BR clear=none>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 0.9em">
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN> </B>Alan <<A
shape=rect rel=nofollow>alanlindsayjames@yahoo.com</A>>; <BR
clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN>
</B>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>; <BR
clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN>
</B>Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner <BR clear=none><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN> </B>Mon, Oct 7, 2013
11:25:26 AM <BR clear=none></DIV><BR clear=none>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top>
<DIV>That's a great find Joe,</DIV>
<DIV>It's designed for the environment & gives us an
idea of size & amp draw.</DIV>
<DIV>It would be ok for surface transit but would need a
through hull valve where it pumped water in,</DIV>
<DIV>that you could close before diving. I doubt the heat
exchanging unit & pump would take</DIV>
<DIV>the ambient water pressure at depth. As said, the
Triton Heat exchanger is outside in the water</DIV>
<DIV>& would ( I'm guessing ) just have fresh water at
ambient pressure running through it.</DIV>
<DIV> I like what Phil said they do, with the
ice pads. There are all sorts of spaces you could pack</DIV>
<DIV>them in.</DIV>
<DIV>Alan</DIV>
<DIV><BR clear=none>Sent from my iPad</DIV>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167yqt30854
class=yiv9243579167yqt2497771236>
<DIV><BR clear=none>On 6/10/2013, at 11:08 PM, Joe Perkel
<<A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>josephperkel@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR
clear=none><BR clear=none></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE type="cite">
<DIV>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
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<TD vAlign=top>Here's a 12VDC unit<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none><A
title=http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf
href="http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf"
shape=rect rel=nofollow
target=_blank>http://www.tropicalmarineairconditioning.com/sheets/2425C.pdf</A><BR
clear=none><BR clear=none>This one is dedicated DC,
..but I think running a similar sized AC unit off an
inverter for dual power source options is worth
considering. Powering the unit on the surface as I
described in an earlier post. I don't propose diving
with the unit running, but more so a pre and post
mission environmental purge, particularly with the
main goal of aggressively dehumidifying the
cabin.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>No space in
these boats as you note, this requires upsizing
accordingly, but carefully. I once calculated the
volume of a sacrificed conning tower could be
substituted for 48" and a shortened length for
nearly the same weight, I forget the numbers for the
moment.<BR clear=none><BR clear=none>These compact
AC units can be plumbed as I described earlier, the
heat exchanger would have to be purposely designed.
The outflow water of these units is pretty damn hot,
much much hotter than the surrounding water.<BR
clear=none><BR clear=none>I live through Vance's
camel torture story for about five minutes every
time I climb into my white SUV. <BR clear=none><BR
clear=none>If I'm ever to build and have a practical
Florida submersible, I've got to be cognizant of
these issues and address then carefully. <BR
clear=none><BR clear=none>Joe<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none><BR clear=none><BR clear=none>Sent from
Yahoo! Mail for iPad</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
<DIV id=yiv9243579167_origMsg_>
<DIV><BR clear=none>
<DIV>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 0.9em">
<HR SIZE=1>
<B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">From:</SPAN> </B>Jon
Wallace <<A shape=rect
rel=nofollow>jonw@psubs.org</A>>; <BR
clear=none><B><SPAN style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">To:</SPAN>
</B>Personal Submersibles General Discussion <<A
shape=rect
rel=nofollow>personal_submersibles@psubs.org</A>>; <BR
clear=none><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Subject:</SPAN> </B>Re:
[PSUBS-MAILIST] Air conditioner <BR clear=none><B><SPAN
style="FONT-WEIGHT: bold">Sent:</SPAN> </B>Mon, Oct 7,
2013 2:32:22 AM <BR clear=none></DIV><BR clear=none>
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0>
<TBODY>
<TR>
<TD vAlign=top><BR clear=none>In the recreational,
personal, sub-world you generally can't have your
<BR clear=none>cake and eat it too. Put two
adults in a small sub like the K250 and <BR
clear=none>you sacrifice comfort for
occupancy. Freon based AC units whether auto
<BR clear=none>or household are not practical
solutions for the traveling submariner, <BR
clear=none>such as convention diving. There
was zero space for such an AC unit on <BR
clear=none>board the Boston Whaler used to tow
SNOOPY out into the ocean, and the <BR
clear=none>support boat was being tossed in 2-4 foot
seas. It simply is not <BR
clear=none>practical unless you are building a
support boat specific for your sub <BR
clear=none>diving and trailering it along with your
submarine to the dive location.<BR clear=none><BR
clear=none>The best solution for the average psubber
is to use a small ice chest <BR clear=none>(six-pack
size) stuffed with ice and then circulate cabin air
over that <BR clear=none>ice. Use a small
computer fan to force air over the ice if
necessary. <BR clear=none>The first
refrigerators were nothing more than ice-chests,
low-tech, <BR clear=none>easy maintenance, not super
efficient but adequate to keep things <BR
clear=none>relatively cool.<BR clear=none><BR
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