[PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site

Mon Jul 3 02:17:04 EDT 2023

hello,
Everyone is pushing a narrative:
OceanGate was pushing the innovation vs regulation narrative, to
such a crazy/flawed extent it now risks hurting all innovators.
Triton does not want its customers to evaporate and being put in the same
bag as OceanGate. Their frustration is understandable given the level of
warning they had given. they are pushing the classification is essential
narrative (which I think is good for vehicles with passengers, especially
deep)
I guess we as a group are anxious not to see a curtain of regulations
falling down on any psubs activities as a fall out from the accident, and
our narrative is that non-classification or off the shelf components are
not bad per se, what matters is sound engineering. (we should talk to the
media as much as we can to that end)
Media are probably sensationalizing everything.

France is a good example of regulatory overreach with a culture of
"everything is forbidden unless it is specifically authorized". It probably
explains why I am probably the only builder of 1atm subs I know of here,
and still, I had to register my sub with british flag (imagine that ;-))
with a super special authorization process now to dive here.
that is too bad because the country had a wealth of submersible know-how
and innovative spirit in the Cousteau&Comex days.

regards,

Antoine

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 12:53 AM Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> That's it, except that Left bias in the media goes back long before COVID.
>
> Marc de Piolenc
> On 7/3/2023 6:34 AM, Gregory Snyder via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
>
> Hi Carsten!
> I think I can address what Marc is referring to in his “despite its heavy
> leftism” comment.
>
> Right now the media in the United States is horribly broken to the point
> that we really don’t have any news organizations that tell news.  Rather
> they find a few items that they will consider “facts” and they will create
> a narrative of “this is the truth and everything else is a lie” commentary.
>  Very frustrating for the average citizen who just wants to stay informed.
>
> The same exact event will have two distinctly separate approaches to how
> it is represented in the media.
>
> It is fairly awful.
> This is compounded by the multiple events over the past few years where
> the government was openly lying ( or protecting the public from the truth)
> about Covid, it’s origin and possible treatments - and the American people
> have lost faith in the government AND the media.
> Only made worse by the government directly involving itself in social
> media to control what can be and will be allowed to be discussed.
>
> Marc’s initial comment “despite its heavy leftism” was to acknowledge that
> the magazine is typically viewed as having opinions that would only be
> endorsed by 1/2 of the country  and that it would be typical tactics in
> their journalistic integrity to demean the person involved and not address
> facts of the case.
>
> He was saying “even though recent history of this magazine would let us
> know they are going to do a bad job, they did an even worse job than
> expected.”
>
> I personally get my news from the BBC.
>
> At least I’m digesting someone else’s propaganda.
>
> Our system is broken.
> Most normal Americans realize it but are powerless to stop it.
> For a time when we have almost the best of everything in history, we are
> busy creating our own conflicts and racial divides because it serves the
> major political parties.
>
> My father passed away last year at almost 94 years old.
> He told me once, “Son, the world is going to hell, but I’m getting out in
> time.”
>
> The older I get.  The more I embrace that sentiment.
>
> AND…you still have the most awesome personal submersible I have ever seen.
>
> Best personal regards,
> Greg
>
> (Marc -please correct me if I am wrong)
> (Everyone else - I don’t mean to enter any sort of political debate here
> about anything - just trying to put Marc’s statement into context for our
> European colleagues. )
>
> On Jul 2, 2023, at 12:51 PM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> 
>
> Marc, what means "Despite its heavy leftism" ?
>
>
>
> And how can a sounding system help you on a fiber with the elastic
> behaviour of glass?
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-07-02T07:01:28+0200
>
> Von: "Marc de Piolenc via Personal_Submersibles"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"
> <MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles>
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> And the character assassination and innuendos are running full blast.
> Despite its heavy leftism, I would have expected something more like
> journalistic integrity from The New Yorker.
>
> The article did reveal one fact that I had not seen, namely that the
> occupants had time enough to release weights before the fatal implosion.
> The acoustic sensors did work, but did not give sufficient margin.
>
> The rest is essentially irrelevant but damaging floss. Endless harping
> about the controller, which was completely irrelevant to this accident, as
> the author and his informants must have known.
>
> Marc de Piolenc
> On 7/2/2023 3:53 AM, MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
> wrote:
>
> The Titan Submersible Implosion Was “an Accident Waiting to Happen” | The
> New Yorker
> <https://www.newyorker.com/news/a-reporter-at-large/the-titan-submersible-was-an-accident-waiting-to-happen?fbclid=IwAR0CN7CyK3Ok72HX4Mf0n6sB6uc95sE-nH5_N1KDrqA5XHU1vx_k8eUCbfo>
>
>
>
> Best insider description so far.
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-07-01T12:13:41+0200
>
> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"
> <MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles>
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I have done the calculation again for a spherical shell sector window with
> conical edge 160Mpa and CF 4.
>
> According to this, a window with 530/376 & 60° would have to be
> would have a wall thickness of 161 mm - according to photos it was 140 mm
> at 60° or 110 mm at a 90° fit.
> A 90° window would have needed 132 mm thickness according to the code.
> Now.. 140 to 161 mm or 110 to 132 mm is not far off - and considering the
> window was inside straight - means there was more material there.
>
> I now think the window was OK from a pressure design point of view. To be
> precise you would need a cross-section drawing with the real geometry.
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:29:35+0200
>
> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"
> <MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles>
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> If I use these 120 mm (STCP) and a CF of 4  it was good for around 1000 m.
>
> With 120 mm thickness it was at collapse deep.
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-06-30T22:18:31+0200
>
> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles"
> <MerlinSub at t-online.deviaPersonal_Submersibles>
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I found a much better picture and correct the figures as follow:
>
>
>
> Diameter hull                                   1600 mm (given)
>
> Diameter front porthole outside         614 mm
>
> Diameter front porthole inside           436 mm
>
>
>
> But given with the outer window diamter given by Jon of just 530 I come to
>
>
>
> Diameter hull                                   1381mm
>
> Diameter front porthole outside         530 mm (given)
>
> Diameter front porthole inside           376 mm
>
>
>
> If I do with the 530 / 376 a little reverse enginering on a conical seat
> of 60°
>
> I come to a thickness of just 120 mm for a inside and outside flat
> conical frustrum window.
>
>
>
> According to PVHO-1-1987  t /Di = 0,348  with  t = 0,348 x 376 mm = 162 mm
> at 40 Mpa (4000m)
>
> (for Short term critical presssure)
>
>
>
> But from Jon's picture it seems more a Sperical Sector Window with Conical
> Edge. and flat inside.
>
> The code has no figures for such a window.
>
> But if I use for Sherical Shell windows t/di shall 0,195 means t =  0,195
> x 376 = 73 mm
>
>
>
> To be diplomatic I just mix up the flat with the sperhical and got (162 +
> 73) / 2 = 117,5 mm
>
> (for Short term critical presssure)
>
>
>
> The code says if you have not a standard geometrie - you have to test 5
> windows to destroy dephs
>
> and use the lowest failture pressure for your calculation.
>
>
>
> Carsten
>
>
>
> .
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>
> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>
> Datum: 2023-06-30T16:11:40+0200
>
> Von: "Antoine Delafargue via Personal_Submersibles"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Hello Carsten,
>
> for the thickness, I read that the viewport should have been rated for
> 1300meters depth, so I think that the designer designed for a short term
> critical pressure of 5200m/52MPa, and perhaps thought it would be fine
> using a 1.3X margin to get to 4000m rather than the 4X margin we can find
> in Stachiw book and PVHO rules for low temperatures (to be checked but I
> believe it is 4x).
>
> regards
> Antoine
>
> On Fri, Jun 30, 2023 at 4:03 PM MerlinSub at t-online.de via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> I check out some pictures and based on a given length of 6500mm
>>
>> I come to the following rough figures:
>>
>>
>>
>> Diameter hull                                   1600 mm
>>
>> Diameter front porthole outside         700 mm
>>
>> Diameter front porthole inside            466 mm
>>
>> (these diameters indicate that the porthole could be original designed as
>> entrance..)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Now idear about the thickness of the acrylic
>>
>> - but will check out PHSME about standard flange angles tonight.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>
>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>>
>> Datum: 2023-06-30T15:31:14+0200
>>
>> Von: "MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles" <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>
>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> For me it looks like the biggest diameter porthole used in that deep.
>>
>>
>>
>> Has somebody here inner and outer diameter and the thickness?
>>
>>
>>
>> Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -----Original-Nachricht-----
>>
>> Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Titan submersible missing at Titanic site
>>
>> Datum: 2023-06-29T21:11:55+0200
>>
>> Von: "Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles" <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>
>> An: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion" <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> The pictures of Titan that I see in water show 16 bolts holding the
>> retaining ring in place.  See attached photo.
>>
>>
>> Jon
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, June 29, 2023 at 11:49:18 AM EDT, MerlinSub at t-online.de via
>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> I have seen a video how they make the carbon cylinder and can imagine
>> that the boat imploded in longitudinal direction.
>>
>> Create a massive shock wave with push the window out (not in). As I saw
>> in another video the window was hold by only 4 bolts outside.
>>
>>
>>
>> All titan parts in the video seems undamaged.
>>
>>
>>
>> Carsten
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
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>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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>
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>
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