[PSUBS-MAILIST] Lithium battery

Mon Oct 19 18:33:50 EDT 2020

 Alan,I need batteries for my project in the spring.  The Trojans are ABS approved and 1,300 dollars Cad each.  They are pretty light for 110 amp hr.  I think 23 lbsHank
    On Monday, October 19, 2020, 1:15:09 PM MDT, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Hank,I have a 48V bank of lifePo4 batteries that I have been testing my thrusterwith on an inflatable. I don't have a balance charger, but it's preferable!All electric vehicles, scooters, bikes, skate boards etc seem to have themthese days. Mine are fairly heavy.If you can hold off a while, they are making great progress with the lithium sulphur battery. These batteries already have 4 X the energy density of lithiumiron but they are working on upping the number of charge cycles.Alan

On 20/10/2020, at 5:45 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Thanks guys. I think I steering toward Trojan at 12V and 110 ahThese are ABS certified for inside the occupant sphere.  I will keep looking and listening Hank

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 19, 2020, at 10:30 AM, Jim via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Hank,Nuytco switched to LiFePo4 several years ago; Phil said it was a “no-brainer” since the life span, charge cycles, energy density, etc. actually make them cheaper in the long run.  In comparing capacity, remember that you can only discharge an AGM down to 50% or so without significant damage, whereas you can take Li down to 10%.  The numbers can be misleading unless you make the proper adjustments in order to make an apples to apples comparison.  Taking into account space and fit considerations, here is a size chart:
BCI Battery Group Size Chart
| Group Size | LxWxH (inches) | LxWxH (cm) |
| Group 24 Batteries | 10.25 x 6.8125 x 8.875 | 26 x 17.3 x 22.5 |
| Group 27 Batteries | 12.0625 x 6.8125 x 8.875 | 30.6 x 17.3 x 22.5 |
| Group 31 Batteries | 13 x 6.8125 x 9.4375 | 33 x 17.3 x 24 |
| Group 34 Batteries | 10.25 x 6.8125 x 7.875 | 26 x 17.3 x 20 |

More info is available at www.batteryequivalents.com 
The fail point inside Li batteries seems to be the Battery Management System (BMS). On the cheaper batteries, the terminals, buss bars, and wiring are often under-sized.  For a non-sub application my choice is Battle Born. They are a little more expensive than other 100 amp hour batteries in their class (about $950), but the construction and quality is certainly superior.  www.battlebornbatteries.comThey have some good videos including on on designing and sizing battery banks. I’ll have to take a closer look at the info Cliff provided.
On a related subject (again for a non-sub application), I started with a Bluetti AC200 all-in-one which includes Battery bank, a 2000W pure sine wave inverter and six 120v outlets. 
You can get a lot of good info on YouTube by searching Will Prowse.  It’ll be interesting to see what you come up with.
Cheers,Jim

Sent from my iPad

On Oct 19, 2020, at 9:42 AM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Hank, I have been doing a lot of research on this vary issue with my new boat, the R800.  I really like the Valence U27-12xp lithium Li FePO4 battery.  There is a least one commercial private sub that uses these battery modules.  Do a search on YouTube for info/ teardowns on these batteries.  What is good about them is battery chemistry is more stable than conventional LI batteries and heavy duty electronics.  Not your typical crappy Chinese electronics. They come in a group 27 form factor with a nominal 12V with a built in BMS in each module.  Each module has a 137AH capacity.
These modules new are on the order of $2,500 each but are readily available on Ebay at $450 each.  Each module has a life of 3000-4000 cycles with used modules on Ebay with 10-300 cycles so lots of life left in them.  They are set up so that an overall BMS unit manages the entire pack interfacing with each modules interval BMS.  These modules can be configured in just about any series/parallel arrangement you can think.  For my boat, I am looking at  3S2P configuration, that is, 3 of these U27-12XP's in series with 2 banks, one in each pod in parallel. This would give a bank voltage of 36V and a bank capacity of 274AH or 9.9kWh.  I am using 36V the main propulsion bank to mate with the Minn Kota 101 running at 36V nominal.  IF you want more capacity, you would put more more in parallel, i.e., 3SnP where n=1, 2...  I am also using these for the emergecy battery bank with a 0S2P configuration for 24V nominal.
Communication with module and cells within each module is via. serial communication using RS-485.  After a bank has been wired, you can connect a laptop an plug into the overall BMS and integrated each module on aspects such as number of cycles, cell voltage and temperature, current  ...
For PLC guys, because it uses standard RS-485 serial communication, the PLC can also interface with any are all of the modules.  See for a quick overview.
Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries

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Valence U-Charge XP Series Lithium Ion Batteries

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On the downside of LI, it would be good to hear from Hugh Fulton, designer of the Q-Sub in New Zealand.  The last time I spoke with Hugh he said that he was on his third set of LI batteries and was not a happy camper on the battery front.  
As a comparison, below is a table of the Valence U27-XP compared with a Mighty Max ML110-12 AGM.

| Comparison - Valence U27-12XP and MightMax ML110-12 |
|  |  |  |
| Description | U27-12XP | ML110-12 |
| Configuration | 3S2P | 3S2P |
| Type | Li FePO4 | AGM |
| Group | 27 | 30H |
| Bank Voltage | 36V | 36V |
| Capacity | 276 | 220 |
| Watt Hours | 9.9 | 7.9 |
| Max Discharge current | 150A | 900A |
| Bank Cost (6 modules) | $2,700 used | $1,212 new |
| Cycles | 4000 | 500 |
| Weight (Lbs) | 42.2 | 63.9 |
| Requires BMS | Yes | No |
| Detailed cell sensors | YEs | No |
| SOC measurement | Yes | No |
| Interface with PLC via RS485 | Yes | No |

For a shallow diving psub, the advantage of LI energy density as compared with AGM is not that important as we normally add lots of ballast but for a deep diver, you normally have much less ballast due to the added thickness of steel in the hull so the energy density  becomes a very big advantage.  For the comparison above you can see the weight of the U27-12XP is 34% less than the ML110-12 AGM.
Let me know what you finally end up with.  I am assuming this is for the E3000?
Cliff
    On Monday, October 19, 2020, 07:22:26 AM CDT, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:  

 Hi All,I am looking at going with Lithium batteries inside my sub.  Of coarse weight is the reason.  Has anyone gone down this road?What is best?Hank_______________________________________________
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