[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear

[Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles]

Antoine

Thanks for the reply. That's quite a set up you have there. Do you happen
to know what the depth rating is for the housing?
Rick

On Thu, Apr 25, 2019 at 1:04 PM Antoine Delafargue via
Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Hi Rick,
> I did mention the tilting buoy.
> it is basically 1m long transparent acrylic tube 90mm diameter, and two
> caps, with reinforcement rings inside to hold external pressure
> I has a strobe light near the top of the buoy, then the satellite tracker
> beneath, then further down a tilt switch which turns on the connection
> between the probe and batteries once the buoy reaches a verticality or
> thereabouts, further down there are batteries and lead to keep the buoy
> upright.
> the flash light s taken from a handheld safety flash light people attach
> to lifevests like
> https://satellitephonestore.com/catalog/sale/detail/acr-firefly-plus-flashlight-with-signal-strobe-1916-994
> the buoy sits flat on the top of the sub, but if I release the rope spool
> (kite surf dynema line, 200meters), then it tilts up and lights up. I
> tested it at night live and it works pretty well;
> [image: image.png]
>
> regards
> Antoine
>
> On Wed, Apr 24, 2019 at 9:54 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> someone posted earlier when people started sharing what they had on board
>> for emergency's that they had an emergency buoy that had a strobe that was
>> activated when it rotated 90 degrees but I can't find it, must of
>> accidentally deleted it. If whoever had that sees this, I would appreciate
>> knowing where you got it as I would like to add that to my emergency buoy.
>> Thanks to everyone about sharing their views on bailout gasses. That is
>> what makes this site so valuable!!!
>> Rick
>>
>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 8:34 AM David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent
>>> rates form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max
>>> accent rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed
>>> gases would you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim
>>> 60ft/min.
>>>
>>> Best Regards,
>>> David Colombo
>>>
>>> 804 College Ave
>>> Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
>>> (707) 536-1424
>>> www.SeaQuestor.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via
>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question.
>>>> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen
>>>> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12%
>>>> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to
>>>> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second
>>>> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and
>>>> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the
>>>> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same
>>>> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50%
>>>> oxygen, balance nitrogen.
>>>>
>>>> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the
>>>> gas mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect
>>>> comparable to breathing air at 80 fsw.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a
>>>> PPO2 of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer
>>>> to the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser
>>>> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because
>>>> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression
>>>> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest
>>>> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still
>>>> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70
>>>> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at
>>>> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100%
>>>> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks Sean.
>>>>
>>>> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at  350 – 400 ft.  Looking
>>>> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths.  Then I can see
>>>> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the
>>>> necessary valving.  It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply
>>>> it would help me sleep.  Regards, Hugh
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
>>>> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T.
>>>> Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM
>>>> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic
>>>> zone with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric
>>>> pressure is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency
>>>> response to arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS,
>>>> prompt oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can
>>>> make the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability.
>>>> If I could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then
>>>> 50/0 as the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without
>>>> surface support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for
>>>> an evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in
>>>> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at
>>>> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any
>>>> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only
>>>> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70.
>>>>
>>>> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement
>>>> facilitates the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill
>>>> you, and you must ensure somehow that this is not possible.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas?
>>>>
>>>> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the
>>>> minimum operating depth of the first gas.
>>>>
>>>> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a
>>>> better safety margin.
>>>>
>>>> Just running some numbers for gas quantities...
>>>>
>>>> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9
>>>> CFM.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Very well said Sean.
>>>>
>>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing
>>>> decompression sickness.  I wonder,  if DCS would even be a consideration at
>>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub
>>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no
>>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may
>>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause
>>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may
>>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less
>>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too
>>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never
>>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom
>>>> bailout gas to verify its operation.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>>> doing so.
>>>>
>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>>> examples of this.
>>>>
>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>>> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>>> 218 fsw.
>>>>
>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>>
>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>>
>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>>> understanding of it.
>>>>
>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>>
>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>>
>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities
>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>>
>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>>
>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>>> possibility of success.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>>> doing so.
>>>>
>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>>> examples of this.
>>>>
>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>>> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>>> 218 fsw.
>>>>
>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>>
>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>>
>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>>> understanding of it.
>>>>
>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>>
>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>>
>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities
>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>>
>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>>
>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>>> possibility of success.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Very well said Sean.
>>>>
>>>> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing
>>>> decompression sickness.  I wonder,  if DCS would even be a consideration at
>>>> all in that situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub
>>>> environment would be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no
>>>> onboarding of inert gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may
>>>> not be enough time to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause
>>>> DCS. The rate of ascent might be an issue.
>>>>
>>>> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may
>>>> cause loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less
>>>> mystery to that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too
>>>> shallow. Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never
>>>> having exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom
>>>> bailout gas to verify its operation.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>>> doing so.
>>>>
>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>>> examples of this.
>>>>
>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>>> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>>> 218 fsw.
>>>>
>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>>
>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>>
>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>>> understanding of it.
>>>>
>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>>
>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>>
>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities
>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>>
>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>>
>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>>> possibility of success.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished
>>>> doing so.
>>>>
>>>> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent
>>>> examples of this.
>>>>
>>>> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
>>>> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
>>>> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
>>>> 218 fsw.
>>>>
>>>> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
>>>> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
>>>> where tolerance is greater.
>>>>
>>>> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure
>>>> the shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be
>>>> experienced. 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45
>>>> minutes as a single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>>>>
>>>> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
>>>> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
>>>> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
>>>> understanding of it.
>>>>
>>>> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and
>>>> more quickly a person may be affected.
>>>>
>>>> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
>>>> that is enough to keep us alive.
>>>>
>>>> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities
>>>> is drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>>>>
>>>> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
>>>> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
>>>> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
>>>> could predispose to ox tox also.
>>>>
>>>> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest
>>>> possibility of success.
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.
>>>>  And free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is
>>>> solely because of oxygen toxicity?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>  Great analysis  !
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Brian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>>>>
>>>> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>>>> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
>>>> qualified to comment on this.
>>>>
>>>> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
>>>> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
>>>> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>>>>
>>>> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium
>>>> in varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to
>>>> be tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
>>>> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>>>>
>>>> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated
>>>> partial pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure.
>>>> Generally these are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death
>>>> is inevitably drowning.
>>>>
>>>> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
>>>> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
>>>> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
>>>> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
>>>> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
>>>> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
>>>> oxygen into the body..
>>>>
>>>> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>>>>
>>>> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive...
>>>> ie travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
>>>> this discussion)
>>>>
>>>> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly
>>>> to maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
>>>> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>>>>
>>>> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
>>>> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
>>>> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>>>>
>>>> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
>>>> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>>>>
>>>> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this
>>>> with 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>>>>
>>>> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
>>>> using air.
>>>>
>>>> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas,
>>>> and even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>>>>
>>>> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
>>>> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
>>>> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
>>>> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
>>>> approximately 218 ft.
>>>>
>>>> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>>>>
>>>> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>>>>
>>>> Tom
>>>>
>>>> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles"
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Sean,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>>>>
>>>> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>>>>
>>>> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>>>>
>>>> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>>>>
>>>> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
>>>> conventional
>>>>
>>>> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>>>>
>>>> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>>>>
>>>> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>>>>
>>>> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1
>>>> passenger.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
>>>> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
>>>> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
>>>> to leave the bottom.
>>>>
>>>> Sean
>>>>
>>>> -------- Original Message --------
>>>> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>>>>
>>>> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the
>>>> sub.
>>>>
>>>> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation
>>>> required
>>>>
>>>> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down
>>>> toward
>>>>
>>>> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near
>>>> impossible
>>>>
>>>> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
>>>> anyway.
>>>>
>>>> Alan
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to
>>>> me in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just
>>>> how big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine
>>>> you had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now
>>>> lets say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure
>>>> is 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
>>>> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
>>>> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
>>>> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
>>>> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
>>>> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
>>>> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
>>>> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
>>>> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
>>>> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
>>>> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
>>>> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
>>>> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
>>>> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
>>>> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
>>>> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
>>>> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
>>>> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
>>>> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
>>>> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
>>>> as possible.
>>>>
>>>> Rick
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
>>>> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
>>>> whole life!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
>>>> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
>>>> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
>>>> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
>>>> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
>>>> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your input everybody!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Shanee,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all
>>>> that. But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple
>>>> thing... a flashlight.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Alec
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
>>>> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or
>>>> what 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *CG requirements*
>>>>
>>>> air horn
>>>>
>>>> whistle
>>>>
>>>> life jackets
>>>>
>>>> fire extinguisher
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *safety*
>>>>
>>>> fire blanket
>>>>
>>>> 2x scuba masks
>>>>
>>>> 2x spare air
>>>>
>>>> primary gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> backup gas analyzer
>>>>
>>>> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>>>>
>>>> handheld radios
>>>>
>>>> uw radio system
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *repair kit*
>>>>
>>>> gorilla tape
>>>>
>>>> electrical tape
>>>>
>>>> butyl tape
>>>>
>>>> zip tie assortment
>>>>
>>>> spare battery terminals
>>>>
>>>> spare wire connectors
>>>>
>>>> spare wire
>>>>
>>>> splash zone
>>>>
>>>> JB weld
>>>>
>>>> steel tie wire
>>>>
>>>> steel strap
>>>>
>>>> e6000 glue
>>>>
>>>> hose clamp assortment
>>>>
>>>> screwdriver set
>>>>
>>>> adjustable wrench
>>>>
>>>> multi-tool
>>>>
>>>> hammer
>>>>
>>>> scissors
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> What's in your kits?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Shanee
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
>>>> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
>>>> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
>>>> Levi
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> :::::
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a
>>>> host of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it
>>>> is all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
>>>> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
>>>> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
>>>> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
>>>> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
>>>> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
>>>> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
>>>> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
>>>> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
>>>> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>>
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
>> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
>> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
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