[PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear

[David Colombo via Personal_Submersibles]

Hi Guys, This topic is fascinating and scary at the same time. Accent rates
form the old Navy logs had 60ft / minute max with a recommended max accent
rate of 30 ft/ min. At 300ft escape depth, what volume of mixed gases would
you need for a 10 minute accent assuming you choose not to swim 60ft/min.

Best Regards,
David Colombo

804 College Ave
Santa Rosa, CA. 95404
(707) 536-1424
www.SeaQuestor.com



On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 5:24 AM Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Sorry Hugh, I just re-read your post and noticed I missed a question.
> Trimixes are usually referred to by two numbers corresponding to the oxygen
> percentage and the helium percentage, so 12/65 would be a trimix with 12%
> oxygen, 65% helium, and balance nitrogen. This notation can also be used to
> describe nitrox and heliox as well. With nitrox or oxygen, the second
> number is zero, and with heliox, the two numbers sum to 100%. Heliox and
> nitrox are also commonly notated with a single number corresponding to the
> oxygen percentage since the balance gas is implied. Heliox 16 is the same
> as 16/84, and EAN50 (for Enriched Air Nitrox) is the same as 50/0. 50%
> oxygen, balance nitrogen.
>
> END stands for Equivalent Narcotic Depth. An END of 80 fsw means the gas
> mixture at the specified depth would produce a narcotic effect comparable
> to breathing air at 80 fsw.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 23, 2019, 05:51, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> If I were planning a dive to that depth, I'd use 10/70, which has a PPO2
> of 1.25 and an END of 80 fsw. For escape, I'd push the PPO2 to closer to
> the 1.6 maximum, because a higher oxygen content implies a lesser
> decompression obligation, and I would accept a slightly deeper END, because
> the nitrogen uptake is slower, so that also reduces the decompression
> obligation on such a short bounce dive. For escape from 400, I'd suggest
> 12/65. This gives you a 1.55 PPO2 and an END of 95 fsw, which is still
> reasonable. The switch to 50/0 can not and must not occur deeper than 70
> fsw, and if at all possible, you would want to slow the ascent starting at
> the switch. Once you break the surface, it will be critical to get on 100%
> oxygen ASAP, and to evacuate to a recompression facility.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 23:44, Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Thanks Sean.
>
> What is 50/0 and what is 1.6. PPO2 equate to at  350 – 400 ft.  Looking
> for a simple off the shelf mix for the different depths.  Then I can see
> how critical the depth is to changeover tanks/mixes and then look at the
> necessary valving.  It might be impossible but if it is achievable simply
> it would help me sleep.  Regards, Hugh
>
>
>
> *From:* Personal_Submersibles [mailto:
> personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] *On Behalf Of *Sean T. Stevenson
> via Personal_Submersibles
> *Sent:* Tuesday, 23 April 2019 4:59 PM
> *To:* personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
>
>
>
> 50/0 would definitely get you to the surface, and avoid the hypoxic zone
> with a switch at 70 fsw, but its treatment efficacy at atmospheric pressure
> is negligible. I would want my surface support or emergency response to
> arrive with 100% oxygen ASAP. In the event of symptomatic DCS, prompt
> oxygen therapy and prompt transport to a recompression facility can make
> the difference between temporary discomfort and permanent disability. If I
> could be assured of rapid access to 100% oxygen once surfaced, then 50/0 as
> the second gas makes the most sense. If I were escaping without surface
> support, and would likely have to signal and wait for some time for an
> evacuation, I'd be more inclined to ride through a brief hypoxic zone in
> order to have 100% O2 available at the surface for the best shot at
> survival with a bend. In an escape scenario, the ascent rate negates any
> decompression advantage of getting on the high PPO2 sooner - you might only
> get three or four breaths on it as you move up from 70.
>
> I'd be really concerned about whatever mechanical arrangement facilitates
> the switch though. Breathing a high PPO2 at depth will kill you, and you
> must ensure somehow that this is not possible.
>
> Sean
>
>
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 22:21, TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> What about using a EAN50 for the second gas?
>
> You can start pulling it at 70 ft which would give more latitude on the
> minimum operating depth of the first gas.
>
> At 70ft you can still safely breath a 6% O2 bottom gas which provides a
> better safety margin.
>
> Just running some numbers for gas quantities...
>
> At a depth of 400 fsw, a normal, relaxed diver would consume around 9 CFM.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 23, 2019 at 12:02 AM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Very well said Sean.
>
> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression
> sickness.  I wonder,  if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that
> situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would
> be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert
> gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time
> to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of
> ascent might be an issue.
>
> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause
> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to
> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having
> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas
> to verify its operation.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing
> so.
>
> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples
> of this.
>
> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
> 218 fsw.
>
> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
> where tolerance is greater.
>
> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the
> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced.
> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>
> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
> understanding of it.
>
> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more
> quickly a person may be affected.
>
> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
> that is enough to keep us alive.
>
> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>
> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
> could predispose to ox tox also.
>
> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility
> of success.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing
> so.
>
> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples
> of this.
>
> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
> 218 fsw.
>
> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
> where tolerance is greater.
>
> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the
> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced.
> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>
> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
> understanding of it.
>
> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more
> quickly a person may be affected.
>
> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
> that is enough to keep us alive.
>
> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>
> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
> could predispose to ox tox also.
>
> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility
> of success.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Very well said Sean.
>
> I do have some thought on your last statement about choosing decompression
> sickness.  I wonder,  if DCS would even be a consideration at all in that
> situation. My reasoning is that prior to escape the sub environment would
> be at surface pressure of 1 ATA, so there should be no onboarding of inert
> gas until the equalization and escape occurs. There may not be enough time
> to absorb enough inert gas into the body tissue to cause DCS. The rate of
> ascent might be an issue.
>
> The greatest concern, in my opinion would be using a gas which may cause
> loss of consciousness at or near the surface. There is far less mystery to
> that and too many have died by breathing their bottom gas too shallow.
> Recently in my area an experienced rebreather diver died never having
> exceeded 7ft depth after taking a breath of his hypoxic bottom bailout gas
> to verify its operation.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:41 PM -0400, "TOM WHENT via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing
> so.
>
> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples
> of this.
>
> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
> 218 fsw.
>
> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
> where tolerance is greater.
>
> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the
> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced.
> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>
> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
> understanding of it.
>
> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more
> quickly a person may be affected.
>
> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
> that is enough to keep us alive.
>
> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>
> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
> could predispose to ox tox also.
>
> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility
> of success.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Some people have taken air to extreme depths and some have perished doing
> so.
>
> Sheck Exley's book Caverns Measureless to Man has some excellent examples
> of this.
>
> The generally accepted maximum oxygen exposure is 1.6 atmospheres of
> partial pressure.  This is generally considered safe for all. Above that
> it's a crap shoot. Oxygen toxicity is the sole reason air becomes toxic at
> 218 fsw.
>
> Some people tolerate oxygen toxicity better than others. It is also
> experienced differently while immersed as opposed to a hyperbaric chamber
> where tolerance is greater.
>
> It is also a time- dose relationship. The higher the partial pressure the
> shorter the exposure duration can be before effects might be experienced.
> 1.6 ATA of oxygen partial pressure can be sustained for 45 minutes as a
> single dose. (NOAA oxygen exposure tables )
>
> The mechanism of ox tox centers around the formation of oxygen free
> radicals in the body. The body can naturally eliminate so many before it is
> overwhelmed and neurological damage occurs. That is my simplified
> understanding of it.
>
> The higher the oxygen exposure,  the more rapidly OFRs are formed and more
> quickly a person may be affected.
>
> As divers we stay within the safe known operating parameters and trust
> that is enough to keep us alive.
>
> Often when there is a fatality the cause of death for the authorities is
> drowning but usually some other factor caused that outcome.
>
> In your escape situation, your exposure time might be small enough to
> avoid disaster. I can't say!  I would think that any delay in getting
> equalized and out of the sub could be increasingly difficult and the stress
> could predispose to ox tox also.
>
> If it were me, I would want to set myself up for the greatest possibility
> of success.
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 11:04 PM -0400, "Brian Cox via
> Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> There have been numerous successful escapes from around 150' depth.   And
> free divers have set records going close to 400' I believe.
>
>
>
> Tom,   does the fact that compressed air becomes toxic at 218 ft is solely
> because of oxygen toxicity?
>
>
>
>  Great analysis  !
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: TOM WHENT via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org
> >
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] onboard gear
> Date: Mon, 22 Apr 2019 20:24:42 -0600 (MDT)
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> As a rebreather and technical diver and gas blending technician I feel
> qualified to comment on this.
>
> Heliox 16 would be a poor choice due to expense and O2 content that is
> borderline at the surface. It would be toxic at 350 ft depth when inspired
> under ambient pressure and could produce a seizure without warning.
>
> Most deep divers would use a trimix gas of nitrogen , oxygen and helium in
> varying percentages to sustain life and avoid narcosis. It would have to be
> tailored specifically for the maximum depth as well as take into
> consideration your intended purpose of breathing it to the surface.
>
> The trouble is that oxygen becomes toxic when breathed at elevated partial
> pressures and the first warning of this could be a seizure. Generally these
> are not survivable when submerged on scuba. Cause of death is inevitably
> drowning.
>
> Without getting too deep into the gas laws governing this,  what this
> means to you is that for dives of this depth one gas mix is not sufficient.
> For example a safe oxygen mix at 350ft would contain 13% oxygen or less.
> The problem arises when ascending to the surface because 13% oxygen will
> produce unconsciousness there. This is because of the reduced partial
> pressure from lower ambient pressure which affects the ability to transport
> oxygen into the body..
>
> In the technical diving world we cross this bridge in one of two ways.
>
> 1) using separate cylinders of gas for different phases of the dive... ie
> travel mix and bottom mix (deco mix also but this would be irrelevant to
> this discussion)
>
> 2) using a closed circuit rebreather which blends the gas on- the-fly to
> maintain optimal oxygen partial pressure for the depth. These are very
> expensive and require far more training than open circuit scuba.
>
> I don't have an easy solution to your problem,  but can say that when
> escaping from that depth, you cannot safely use the same breathing gas
> without exposing yourself to extreme risk of drowning.
>
> 16 percent oxygen is considered the minimum  to sustain life at the
> surface and can be used safely to a depth of 297 fsw (or 10 atmospheres.)
>
> An acceptable level of narcosis would be achieved by augmenting this with
> 57% helium, leaving the balance as nitrogen (27%)
>
> The narcosis benchmark used would be an 80 ft depth equivalent exposure
> using air.
>
> Realistically 300ft is the deepest you would want to go with one gas, and
> even that is not ideal. Beyond that all bets are off.
>
> Something else to consider is that in a bailout situation, your ambient
> breathing air inside the sub could become toxic as pressure inside is
> increased to equalize to ambient pressure. You would need to be breathing
> your escape gas at that point.  Compressed air becomes toxic at a depth of
> approximately 218 ft.
>
> I hope this helps! \uD83E\uDD2A
>
> If you have any questions of this nature,  I'll do my best to help.
>
> Tom
>
> Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 8:58 PM -0400, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
> Sean,
>
> Yes, I'd rather make it to the surface than die intoxicated in the sub.
>
> I think every sub would have to develop their own equations for escaping
>
> at varying depths. The k250s & 350s could formulate a best scenario for
>
> escape for those classes of submersibles.
>
> Also in the equation is how fast you'd make it to the surface. A
> conventional
>
> life jacket would crush at a decent depth, the inflatable ones wouldn't
>
> Inflate much against the water pressure.
>
> We have previously discussed drogues that are harnessed under your arms
>
> and provide air for breathing, but that's only a solution for 1 passenger.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 12:30 PM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Does that mean that using something like heliox 16 to alleviate the
> narcosis at the elevated risk of a bends hit is an acceptable compromise?
> I'd rather be bent at the surface than narced to the extent that I'm unable
> to leave the bottom.
>
> Sean
>
> -------- Original Message --------
> On Apr 22, 2019, 17:37, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> Also in this equation is the diminishing pressure of the water coming
>
> through the flood valve because of the compression of the air in the sub.
>
> Phil advised to turn on compressed air to hurry the equalisation required
>
> to open the hatch, as the water flow in to the sub slows right down toward
>
> the end. Also he advised that getting out at over 300ft is near impossible
>
> due to nitrogen narcosis leaving you so drunk that you can't get out
> anyway.
>
> Alan
>
>
> On 23/04/2019, at 7:36 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Greg Cottrell once pointed out something that had been non-obvious to me
> in connection with bailouts from shallow-diving subs like ours - just how
> big the seacock needs to be to flood the sub quickly enough. Imagine you
> had a little ball valve of about the diameter of a garden hose. Now lets
> say you are hung up at 140 feet and need to bail. The ambient pressure is
> 60 psi, which happens to be the normal pressure for household plumbing.
> Therefore, your sub would take as long to fill up as it would if you opened
> the hatch while it was parked on your driveway and stuck the garden hose
> in. I'm not sure how long that is, and it will depend on the volume of your
> cabin, but surely it's way past the 10 minute no-decompression time for 140
> feet. The bottom line is PSUB seacocks need to be very generously sized
> because we dive shallow. Shackleton's is 3".
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 2:39 PM Rick Patton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> Depending on the depth that you have to flood the sub and make a free
> accent to the surface, it really depends on how fast you need to equalize
> to try and get to the surface before exceeding the nitrogen uptake limits
> for getting bent on course. Only the air cavity's are affected in a rapid
> pressurization I believe but my sub has a rated working depth of 350' and
> as I remember from the old navy tables, you only have about 5 minutes at
> 165' before you have to make a stop at 10' so due to that fact, I would
> have to flood the sub as fast as I can to minimize the nitrogen uptake to
> make it to the surface before getting bent and the negatives to that are
> that most people can't clear their ears that fast so you are looking at
> possibly blowing your ear drums which in turn is really painful and screws
> up you equilibrium which is going to hamper your safe accent to the surface
> in a timely manner. I am going to have mixed gas in my bailouts to buy me
> time for getting to the surface and keeping the nitrogen uptake as minimal
> as possible.
>
> Rick
>
>
>
> On Mon, Apr 22, 2019 at 7:15 AM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Doesn't feel like it compared to Hank! Also, forgetting food, water,
> blankets and a first aid kit. Forgetting those has been my specialty for my
> whole life!
>
>
>
> Steinke hoods are probably a good idea, although I'm terrified of them
> myself. Does anyone have any information on what pressure change effects
> happen physiologically during an emergency escape? I'm a diver so I'm very
> familiar with what happens when you descend and ascend on scuba, but I'm
> not sure what happens with a sudden and extreme pressure increase. Other
> than all your organs getting squished, of course.
>
>
>
> Thanks for your input everybody!
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 6:58 PM Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Shanee,
>
>
>
> That's a pretty comprehensive list you have, and I couldn't fit all that.
> But how about a pair of Steinke hoods? Oh, and one very simple thing... a
> flashlight.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
>
>
> On Sun, Apr 21, 2019 at 4:35 PM Shanee Stopnitzky via
> Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
>
>
> I'm wondering what everyone's onboard safety/repair kits contain, or what
> 'loose' gear you carry on dives with you. Ours are (so far):
>
>
>
> *CG requirements*
>
> air horn
>
> whistle
>
> life jackets
>
> fire extinguisher
>
>
>
> *safety*
>
> fire blanket
>
> 2x scuba masks
>
> 2x spare air
>
> primary gas analyzer
>
> backup gas analyzer
>
> spare CO2 scrubber - battery powered
>
> handheld radios
>
> uw radio system
>
>
>
> *repair kit*
>
> gorilla tape
>
> electrical tape
>
> butyl tape
>
> zip tie assortment
>
> spare battery terminals
>
> spare wire connectors
>
> spare wire
>
> splash zone
>
> JB weld
>
> steel tie wire
>
> steel strap
>
> e6000 glue
>
> hose clamp assortment
>
> screwdriver set
>
> adjustable wrench
>
> multi-tool
>
> hammer
>
> scissors
>
>
>
> What's in your kits?
>
>
>
> Best,
>
> Shanee
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Institute for Emergence//Community Submersibles Project
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'The fact remains that political frontiers are impervious to our verbal
> cultures, while the substantially nonverbal civilization of playfulness
> crosses them with the happy freedom of the wind and the clouds.' ~ Primo
> Levi
>
>
>
> :::::
>
>
>
> 'Caught up in a mass of abstractions, our attention hypnotized by a host
> of human-made technologies that only reflect us back to ourselves, it is
> all too easy for us to forget our carnal inherence in a more-than-human
> matrix of sensations and sensibilities. Our bodies have formed themselves
> in delicate reciprocity with the manifold textures, sounds, and shapes of
> an animate earth. Our eyes have evolved in subtle interaction with other
> eyes, as our ears are attuned by their very structure to the howling of
> wolves and the honking of geese. To shut ourselves off from these other
> voices, to continue by our lifestyles to condemn these other sensibilities
> to the oblivion of extinction, is to rob our own senses of their integrity,
> and to rob our minds of their coherence. ' ~David Abrams
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
> _______________________________________________ Personal_Submersibles
> mailing list Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> <http:///eonapps/ft/wm/page/compose?send_to=Personal_Submersibles%40psubs.org>
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> _______________________________________________
> Personal_Submersibles mailing list
> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
>
>
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