[PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test
hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Tue Mar 20 19:44:20 EDT 2018
Brian, never ever run you scrubber with the O2 off, that is my own rule. Both on or both off !!!!! Hank
On Tuesday, March 20, 2018, 5:06:49 PM MDT, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
It runs on 5V dc current. I just put a voltage converter from my 12 hotel battery. I believe Hank is using the same unit. Point taken with the CO2 levels . I'm curious how the rise of CO2 relates to the consumption of oxygen. If I have no oxygen supplied and am just using up the cabin oxygen what will the O2 level be when the CO2 level is at 5000 ppm ? Obviously varies depending on the size of the cabin. In a tiny cabin like Cliff's R300 I imagine levels change much more rapidly. Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
From: Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test
Date: Tue, 20 Mar 2018 22:07:51 +0000 (UTC)
Interesting...how are you powering it. The manual says it is powered by a wall-wart.
From: Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tuesday, March 20, 2018 5:39 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test
Sean, My CO2 sensor is this one : https://www.co2meter.com/products/tim10-desktop-co2-temp-humidity-monitor
1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled. and O2 disabled ? With O2 not disabled would increase cabin pressure. 2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level, You should add " with O2 enabled ! " 3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled,
3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber, This seems a little dicey, level could go well above 5000 ppm temporarily 4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production. I would have to get out of the sub at 5000 ppm , might that not stir up the air? Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
From: "Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 19:35:12 -0400
Brian - What CO2 sensor are you using? Do you have the technical specs available? As Cliff suggests, a calibration may be in order.
Assuming you can trust the sensor readings, there are a few tests I would do:
1) Rise time to 5000 ppm under typical CO2 production with scrubber disabled.
2) Rise time to steady state under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled, and characterization of steady state CO2 level,
3) Time to scrubber breakthrough (5000 ppm) under typical CO2 production with scrubber enabled,
3) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to steady state value after enabling fresh scrubber,
4) Time to pull down from 5000 ppm to zero (or <400 ppm) with no CO2 production.
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Mar 19, 2018, 09:26, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Good point. I did not pick up on that. As you say at hatch close it should have been around 400 ppm. CO2 sensor may need calibration.
Cliff
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 9:40 AM, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
I am wondering about the apparent offset in the CO2 reading. You indicate a reading of 1225 ppm at hatch close. Assuming that this was the initial pretest reading before commencing any CO2 production in the closed environment, shouldn't that be closer to the 400 ppm typical of atmospheric air?
Sean
-------- Original Message --------
On Mar 19, 2018, 08:30, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles < personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Looks like progress on qualifying your life support system. A couple of observations. Your scrubber looks like it is controlling the CO2 level nicely. Humidity build looks normal. If you would have stayed in the boat longer, it would eventually plateau. The only thing that looks a little weak to me is the O2 concentration. It looks like your O2 makeup rate was a bit high, i.e., you are making up more O2 than you are consuming. If you looked at your results on a linear basis, the O2 would have reach the maximum acceptable ABS O2 concentration of 23% at 3.75 hours. Well short of the ABS 72 hour target. Not sure how you are controlling O2 makeup. The next thing I would do is do a longer test say 8-9 hours or how ever long it takes for your initial fill of CO2 absorbent to become saturated. The next test I would suggest is how long does it take for CO2 to build to 5000 ppm when O2 if off. Would also suggest you measure and report cabin pressure as this would tell you if you have a gas leak into the cabin. Also I would log the data more frequently say every 10 minutes to improve data analysis. You have nothing better to do while sitting in the boat. Also you might want to consider repeating the test with a low weight pilot to see how the system handle variation in CO2 generation and O2 consumption rates.
Keep up the good work.
Cliff
On Sun, Mar 18, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Hi All, I did a life support test today ! Basically I threw a small party with a couple of friends and my wife. I was sealed in the sub for a total of about 2 1/2 hours . At the hatch closing time the readings were: O2 - 20.6 % CO2 1225 ppm Temp 79 F Humidity 50 % In one hour the readings were: O2 - 21.4 % CO2 1365 ppm Temp79 humidity 63 % At hour 2 readings were: O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1750 ppm Temp 77 F humidity 70 % After 2 1/2 hours readings were : O2 - 22.2 % CO2 1785 ppm Temp 76 humidity 70 % Brian
--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
From: Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] life support test
Date: Mon, 19 Mar 2018 10:59:31 +1100
Hi Alan,Agreed the martini test probably is easier although I think that model is going to deviate the further you go.
I had a friend (very experienced deep air diver) who was pushed to 60m/180ft by a current and he literally didn't have the mental faculty to save himself (he was fortunately holding a rope which I pulled up).
If you're even still conscious breathing air at 100m/300ft you're doing pretty well. High oxygen seizures start to become a real risk beyond 70m on air, quite apart from how debilitating the narcosis will be.
Cheers,Steve
On 19 Mar 2018 10:23 am, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Steve,you are advocating a nitrogen narcosis experience as a training for escape.Nitrogen narcosis is known as the Martini effect & is equivalent to drinking1 martini on an empty stomach for every 10 metres you descend.I think a standard Martini is 3 oz, (some of the alcoholics in the group mightconfirm this). It would be much easier to see how many Martini's you coulddrink & still get out of your sub, than try & do a real simulation with nitrogen.For those with K250s that's about 5 Martini's & K350's 8 at maximum depth.I am shooting for 500ft so that's 12. (36oz)How deep is Scott going?Cheers Alan
Sent from my iPad
On 19/03/2018, at 11:02 AM, Stephen Fordyce via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Hi Brian and all,I'm just going through commissioning a new/modified rebreather which is a bit relevant to this. I believe (sort of at odds with conventional training manuals) that it's valuable to experience the physiological signs and symptoms of the various gases at incorrect levels. Your other systems should of course protect you and be highly conservative, but you never know.
To that end, after a recent long dive I continued to breather the scrubber at home on the couch (for several hours) until the high CO2 effects were noticeable. I've also had a controlled low oxygen experience that I consider valuable. Both worth doing, maybe even regularly - I'd like to do high oxygen one but that's been a bit tricky so far.
If anyone has plans to be exiting a partially flooded sub at depths below 30m/100ft then a nitrogen narcosis experience would be extremely valuable. Especially with quick compression, your mental faculties deteriorate rapidly. Even at that depth, and it gets worse as you go deeper. I don't dive below 50m on air because I barely know what I'm doing.
Cheers,Steve Fordyce
On 18 Mar 2018 2:04 pm, "Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
See DESIGN GUIDELINES FORCARBON DIOXIDE SCRUBBERSIMAY 1983REVISED JULY 1985Prepared byM. L. NUCKOLS, A. PURER, G. A. DEASON
for the philological affects of high CO2 level but if you abort the test if you ever exceed 5000 ppm, you should be safe. In addition to the CO2 issues, you should also familrrize yourself with both Hypoxia which describes levels lower than Normoxia, or percentages lower than 21% and hyperoxic breathing gas when levels rise above 22% of oxygen. Hypoxia would come from running out of makeup O2 or leaving the O2 supply valve closed by accident and hyperoic state would most likely be caused by a high pressure leak of O2 into the cabin caused by a loose fitting. I would recommend you abort the test if O2 concentration falls outside the acceptable range as defined by ABS.
When you go back and analyze the test, it is helpful to have data logged cabin atmosphere parameters including, CO2 and O2 concentrations, cabin pressure and temperature and relative humidity.
Cliff
On Sat, Mar 17, 2018 at 5:37 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
Hi All, Thinking about testing my life support. Will obviously have some people outside the sub watching me, and talking via radio. But I was wondering if there would be a point at which I should abort the test when the CO2 gets to a certain point . If it levels off and stays at a constant but is some what elevated would it be ok to monitor that situation ? Like say it levels off at 2000 ppm and assuming my oxygen is at a constant 20.8 % ? Brian
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