[PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
Alan via Personal_Submersibles
personal_submersibles at psubs.org
Sat Jun 24 01:55:14 EDT 2017
Hi Brian,
from a G.L standpoint, it would be ok as long as you have a certain
amount of stability & can exit the sub if any one of your ballast tanks
ruptures. There is talk in the G.L. rules about crash bars around subs;
they may possibly require you fit them to protect the tanks.
I was told by a psubber how he hit an underwater pinnacle, & even though
he was moving slowly the impact shocked him.
Alan
Sent from my iPad
> On 24/06/2017, at 4:34 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> I think I'm going to take my front steel tank and use it for a mold for making a fiberglass soft ballast tank, then I will fill it with syntactic foam , but leave some space to inject air. Hank, do you have a tank like that? Is having a fiberglass soft ballast Kosher with ABS?
>
> Brian
>
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
>
> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
> Date: Sat, 24 Jun 2017 02:29:49 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Alan,
> The other issue with a bladder or small tanks is supporting them. There would be a lot of weight added to support or house them. A cng tank needs two straps and your done. Lots to consider
> Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 7:45 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> yes the gas tanks may be expensive.
> You could possibly make a series of boxes for the petrol. Make a box out of
> marine ply, seal it with epoxy, drill a couple of holes in the bottom & glue in
> a flexible membrane across the inside bottom of the box. Then seal a top on
> with a valve for filling. Just brain storming here!
> Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 24/06/2017, at 1:12 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> Those look amazing and expensive. I am not saying it is not doable, I am just very nervous due to lack of knowledge. I am sure with proper engineering and safety grounding it can be safe. I would go with CNG type 4 tanks before I did gasoline. I can buy one brand new tank that will provide all the buoyancy I need for 2,500-3,000 or I can buy a used tank that is current until 2030 for 1,100 dollars plus shipping. Also the CNG tank only adds 105 lbs plus compressed air weight to the dry weight, making the sub easy to lift onto the deck of my proposed landing craft.
> Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 6:32 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> I had another quick Google on collapsible petrol containers.
> There is a huge variety, with manufacturers offering tailor made products.
> Here is a news item about them using them on the jetpack. They have a
> collapsible fuel tank strapped to their back.
> http://www.atlinc.com/newsreleases.html
> Alan
>
>
>
>
>
> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> Sent: Saturday, June 24, 2017 11:16 AM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
>
> Alan,
> I am still considering that idea but Sean said NO ;-( It is cheap and I would have lots of exta buoyancy. This is good for Elementary 3,000 but not Elementary 12,000. I want to explore all ideas, and will end up where I started with spheres in epoxy ;-)
> Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 5:01 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> what happened to your idea of using composite tanks pressurised with air?
> As long as they were in test & you had multiple tanks, with a drop weight that
> could compensate for one failing, that would be ok wouldn't it?
> If you were filling to 3000psi, they wouldn't see external pressure till 6000ft.
> You could always test the idea at Nuytco.
> Alan
>
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 24/06/2017, at 10:17 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> LOL,
> I checked on the compressibility and it will compress .5 percent, per 1,000 psi same as hydraulic oil. I have weighed two types of Olive oil today and the specific gravity is actually .86g\cc so it is to heavy. I can't seem to find the light weight stuff .703g\cc if you buy in bulk it is 5 dollars per kg so far.
> I am not even sure I can drive down the road with that much gas, mind you it would be hidden behind panels on the sub. Then there is the expansion while it sits in the hot weather. If the tree huggers heard about it they would crap in their pants and chase me down, luckily my truck can out run a VW van lol.
> Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 3:53 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> is that extra virgin or cold pressed? I wonder if it compresses
> under pressure.
> Olive oil would be an expensive way to go. Whereas petrol costs
> nothing if you re-use it.
> Not sure why you fear gasoline; they let women pump it in to their
> cars at gas stations!
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 24/06/2017, at 4:21 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alec,
> Thank you, I should have bought those instead of the 11 inch, grrrr. I could go with those floats, but I do hope to build the next generation Elementary sub. I want to figure out the whole foam thing and possibly carry it over to the next sub. Alan has really intrigued me with using gasoline, I am terrified of that idea but it has caused me to stumble onto another liquid. In searching I have discovered that Olive Oil is even lighter than gasoline, and obviously safer for me and the environment. I have no idea yet if it is an option, I only stumbled onto it this morning. If anyone knows of a bad reason to use Olive Oil, please let me know. Olive Oil is .703 g\cc and I can put it into plastic containers that are .93 g\cc
> Hank
>
>
> On Friday, June 23, 2017 9:28 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>
> Actually there are trawl floats rated to 1800m. That should have you covered Hank! Check out #629 below.
>
> http://trawlworks.com/floats.html
>
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Mon, Jun 19, 2017 at 1:21 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> These guys have 14" spherical buoys rated to 800 meters - $120.00 with a positive buoyancy of 39 # they are not syntactic. The syntactics start at 30" in dia
>
>
> http://www.mooringsystems.com/ buoyancy.htm
>
>
>
> Brian
>
>
> --- personal_submersibles at psubs. org wrote:
>
> From: james cottrell via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
> Date: Mon, 19 Jun 2017 16:52:56 +0000 (UTC)
>
> Deep sea glass floats are rated for 10,000 psi
>
> http://teledynebenthos.com/ product/flotation_instrument_ housings/flotation-glass- spheres
>
> Greg
>
>
> From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> Sent: Monday, June 12, 2017 6:18 PM
> Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
>
> Hank,
> if you are getting 3lb of floatation per gallon then you need 184
> gallons of gas. 184 x 3 = 552 ( near enough).
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 13/06/2017, at 9:50 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> I need 550 lbs flotation and one imp gallon of water is 10 lbs and gas is 7 lbs that gives me 3 lbs buoyancy per imp gallon that means I need 1650 gallons of gas.
> Hank
>
>
> On Monday, June 12, 2017 3:43 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> are you sure that's right!
> That would give 1900kg of floatation ( nearly 2 ton)
> That is based on gasoline being .71 of the weight of water. So every litre
> of gas gives you about 290 grams of floatation.
> Metric system is much easier for calculating these things.
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 12/06/2017, at 11:42 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> Those are nice, I can see other uses for them. If I use gasoline, I would need about 1,750 imperial gallons for Elementary. I was mistaken about the liquid paraffin, gasoline is better.
>
>
> On Sunday, June 11, 2017 11:36 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Maybe something like this collapsable plastic fuel tank,
> inside a protective fibreglass housing, or a grate arrangement.
> https://www.bdoutdoors.com/ atl-fuel-bladder-extra/
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 12/06/2017, at 12:28 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
> Alan,
> Yes I have, it is very simple and effective. There are of coarse some hazardous logistical problems not to mention environmental concerns. I would opt for diesel fuel to reduce the fire hazard. Any time you have plastic and gas it is dangerous. Last week I did a barge job replacing dock piles. When I walked up and down the plastic dock floats, every time I touched the steel piles I got a spark. Actually Liquid paraffin is even better at .8g\cc
> Hank
>
>
> On Sunday, June 11, 2017 5:32 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
> have you looked at using gasoline?
> More volume required for the same floatation as syntactic foam,
> but apart from the holding tanks it would cost you nothing, as you
> could use it after the dive. If you designed right you could fill the tanks
> at your destination.
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 12/06/2017, at 6:03 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
> Greg,
> that sounds good, I would love to find a more cost effective foam. I still want to build one more sub that goes much deeper, but the foam cost is not manageable. I estimate I can build a Titanic capable sub for 100,000 and 80,000 of that is foam. ;-(
> Hank
>
>
> On Sunday, June 11, 2017 8:29 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Greg,
> There has to be good reason to make foam by other means than standard practices. Cost would be the biggest reason, and using wax will probably work, but is there a saving? Using wax means you have to use a deeper rated sphere to offset the loss of reinforcement provided by the resin. I have no idea what the cost difference would be. Maybe the cost is still much better. When I look at Cliff's report, the resin is not the expensive part. Perhaps the direction should be, to look for a replacement for the spheres. In Cliff's report it shows the resin triples the sphere's performance. That implies that the true strength comes from the resin. Maybe a sawdust resin or a styrofoam granule resin is worth looking at also. Maybe it is a simple as air entrained resin?
> Fun to think about anyways.
> Hank
>
>
> On Sunday, June 11, 2017 6:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Hi Scott,
> Thanks for the offer, but I need foam for 3,000 feet.
> Hank
>
>
> On Saturday, June 10, 2017 9:03 PM, Scott Waters via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
>
>
> Hank,
>
> Hola from Costa Rica!
>
> Depends on if they are glass or carbon fiber spheres and what size they are. They are all pretty durable. We are actually cutting up the foam on Pisces and reattaching it to get the shapes we want.
>
> I do have a ton of syntactic foam that is cert to 400m that I'd sell you for super cheap. Like all of it for $200
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Waters
>
>
>
> Sent from my U.S. Cellular® Smartphone
>
> -------- Original message --------
> From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> Date: 6/10/17 12:38 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
> Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] syntactic foam.
>
> I have an idea, but not sure if it will work. My idea is to fill a neutrally buoyant container with macro and micro spheres. After the container is as full as possible, then fill with an environmentally friendly oil. This would be more buoyant than using a resin and less complicated and cheaper. My concern is, how well will the spheres stand up against breaking from being in contact with the other spheres and the container. Are these spheres delicate?
> Hank
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