[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Sun Jul 23 00:50:31 EDT 2017

Hi Alan, thats what I have designed as well, except that mine is tied to a
trawler float with dive flag on a mast that slides over my vhf antenna.
Recoil is via an electric motor.

David Colombo
On Jul 22, 2017 9:39 PM, "Alan via Personal_Submersibles" <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Brian,
> I have been designing an inflatable buoy with a dive flag on it that
> is controlled by an electric motor. It could be released as an emergency
> buoy from 500ft but it's main function will be to be released from 30ft
> with the
> sub surfacing under it! I can't see why just a dive flag on it wouldn't
> do, after
> all it's good enough for a diver who would be more vulnerable.
> Don't know when I will start it as I have other projects to complete.
> Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
> rt
> > On 23/07/2017, at 5:30 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >
> > Around my neck of the woods ( Ventura, Calif.) the only real concern
> that I have encountered is the issue of surfacing.  I heard through another
> person, inquiring about what would be required by the Coast Guard, would be
> some type of warning light when surfacing ( As stated by Alan).  The height
> of the light ( on some sort of retractable pole) seemed a bit unreasonably
> high, but no matter.  I have a preliminary design that I'm working on for
> such a light.  I would like to hit the ground running and have something
> like that in place when I encounter the Coast Guard to impress them as to
> my equal concern to the danger of surfacing near an oncoming vessel.  Aside
> from the surfacing light, the CG will be looking for everything a normal
> vessel requires,  Nav lights, anchor, flares ( or equivalent), life
> jackets, radio, horn, throw able life ring, current vessel number.
> >
> > Brian
> >
> > --- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:
> >
> > From: Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> > To: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> > Date: Fri, 21 Jul 2017 12:04:45 +1200
> >
> > Many thanks Carsten,
> >
> > Makes sense.
> > Regards,
> > Hugh
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-
> bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via
> Personal_Submersibles
> > Sent: Friday, 21 July 2017 4:37 AM
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> >
> > Hugh the rules are not public.
> > But I can answer specific question if you have.
> >
> > The rules are for selfbuilders - even with no engineers background. Here
> some samples (I use google auto translator):
> >
> > 13.00 Bilge pump
> > At least one bilge pump must be installed. It allows leaking of leaking
> water on the surface. Alternatively, the control cell pump can also be used
> for this purpose by way of a shut-off bypass line (bypass). A bilge pump,
> which is installed in the pressure-resistant control cell, has the
> advantage that you can also take the boat under external water pressure.
> >
> > 14.00 Energy
> > For small U-boats the power supply underwater is usually ensured by
> batteries. For this, the supply is to be divided into a main battery and an
> emergency battery. The charge condition of the batteries must be measured
> by a permanent installation.
> >
> > 15.00 Emergency lighting
> > Two emergency lighting lamps (LED technology) with independent power
> supply and spare batteries are included. Lamps with magnetic base and
> suspension hooks have proven themselves.
> >
> > 16.00 Operating instructions
> > The operating manual describes the vehicle and comprehensively all
> technical aspects Facilities of the vehicle and its operation.
> >
> > and so on..
> >
> >
> > -----Original-Nachricht-----
> > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> > Datum: 2017-07-20T00:42:20+0200
> > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >
> > Hi Carsten,
> >
> > Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places.  That is a
> really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if
> they ever want to go that way.
> > Many thanks for the clarification.  I have all the material certs and
> weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds.  As you say there is
> still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you
> say by the owner.  Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is
> the cost of the rules?
> > Best regards,
> > Hugh
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-
> bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via
> Personal_Submersibles
> > Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> >
> > Hugh,
> >
> > First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the
> EU.
> > The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and
> accident cost in the US can be higher than this.
> >
> > The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man
> builder can fullfill.
> > But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants.
> >
> > The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in
> this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is
> safe for public use. Even for paid passengers.
> >
> > The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in
> abt. the year 1973.. :-)
> >
> > The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material
> (including windows and domes) needs material certificates.
> > And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder
> himself - he has just do a documentation about it.
> >
> > I will give you an example:
> >
> > DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the
> welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it.
> > But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also
> certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on.
> >
> > SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own
> pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test.
> > They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be
> a calibrate typ.
> >
> > So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood
> autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap
> material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore
> industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder.
> > He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person
> responsible for the dock.
> > The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and
> end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure
> hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine.
> >
> > The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size)
> but for a fraction of the cost.
> > The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way
> learn a lot about saftey philosphy.
> > Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the
> most homebuilder anyway like to do.
> > The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the
> guy if they accept him or not.
> > If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will
> accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules.
> >
> > A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000
> Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires.
> >
> > The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full
> documentation.
> >
> > A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey
> certificate.
> > A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only
> if the owners was outside or survife)
> >
> > The SL certifiate is  a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the
> sub was build to safety standard. It is not  a class with repeting function
> all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the
> sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate
> automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification.
> >
> > At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and
> all have found an insurance company for that purpose.
> > The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational
> since many years. Only one has ever a accident.
> > But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a
> dome with the sub still just underwater..
> >
> > IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks.
> > You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is
> good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself.
> > But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some
> money
> > - this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and
> test from the building time.
> >
> > Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give
> you a police for a propan tank style sub.
> > Give me a call if you find one.
> >
> > Vbr Carsten    -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut
> have no building certificate.
> > But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case
> I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has
> no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material
> propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full
> documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut
> since 6.
> >
> >
> > -----Original-Nachricht-----
> > Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> > Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200
> > Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> > An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> >
> > Jon,
> > I think the best is a self regulating amateur body.  There could be more
> than one category possibly,  Retro approved and full compliance.  ASME
> allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be
> demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe.
> > In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then
> it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual
> then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial
> purposes in any way.
> > The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an
> approved inspector,.  From what I remember from our discussion he required
> > :-
> > Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these)
> > Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done)
> > Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material
> Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation
> minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per
> ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this
> aspect) Emergency procedures.
> > Witnessed test dive.
> > (Carsten can correct all this)
> >
> > Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft
> will have their own set of regs.  A registered Marine surveyor could well
> certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising.
> > Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate
> and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted.  I am sure we
> could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of
> someone like Carsten.  Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a
> Commercial Submarine and a submersible.
> >
> > Just my pennies worth.
> > Hugh
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-
> bounces at psubs.org]
> > On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles
> > Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM
> > To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
> > Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
> >
> > Jon,
> > they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation
> between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy
> certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be
> relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going
> through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel
> frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub
> in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany!
> > Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate
> proposals before they become law!
> > Cheers Alan
> >
> > Sent from my iPad
> >
> >>> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
> >> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Hi Alan,
> >>
> >> Good point regarding the taxi comparison.  However, regarding
> >> commercial
> > fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and
> non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for
> private use.  An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category
> exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich
> people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use.  What we are seeing, I
> believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in
> as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel
> to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal"
> > submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built.
> > What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that?  Diminish the
> perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines
> by slapping a label on them such as "experimental".
> >>
> >> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples,
> >> it
> > would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were
> identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying
> authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really
> believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business.
> >>
> >> Jon
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
> >>> Thanks for searching that out Jon,
> >>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial
> >>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to
> >>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle"
> >>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a
> >>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel
> >>> written
> > on it? I doubt it.
> >>>   I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles
> >>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in.  From what I
> >>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy
> >>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in
> >>> limiting
> > any rules for personal submersibles.
> >>> Regards Alan
> >>
> >> _______________________________________________
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> >> Personal_Submersibles at psubs.org
> >> http://www.psubs.org/mailman/listinfo.cgi/personal_submersibles
> >
> >
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