[PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Wed Jul 19 18:39:59 EDT 2017

Hi Carsten,

Yes I remember now that it was not for USA or such places.  That is a really good description and it may be a really good framework for p-subs if they ever want to go that way.
Many thanks for the clarification.  I have all the material certs and weldors certs as well as the dome windows to Lloyds.  As you say there is still a huge amount of paper work to do for SL but it can be done as you say by the owner.  Is it possible to get a copy of the SL rules and what is the cost of the rules?
Best regards,
Hugh

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of MerlinSub at t-online.de via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Thursday, 20 July 2017 7:49 AM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Hugh, 

First SL decide for insurance reason not to certificate subs outside the EU. 
The company is small there own insurance limit to some millions and accident cost in the US can be higher than this. 

The most differnce is that the Sl rules are simplified so a one man builder can fullfill.
But it is limited to subs with 1-5 occupants.

The basic idear was that selfbuilder have a chance that an engineer in this filed can overview the sub and give him a certifictae that the sub is safe for public use. Even for paid passengers.

The complete rules have just 10 pages.. (as GL has for his sub rules in abt. the year 1973.. :-)

The other simplified is that mostly only the pressure hull material (including windows and domes) needs material certificates. 
And nearly all test during the construction can be done by the builder himself - he has just do a documentation about it. 

I will give you an example:

DNV-Gl or an other Class will require test and certificates for the welder, pressure hull and a pressure test of it. 
But they also required the same for the Pressure dock. Also certifications from the pressure dock builder and so on. 

SL have the same requirements for the sub - but you can build you own pressure dock from scrap and blow it up for fun after the test. 
They are only intresst in the sub. Only the gauge on then dock should be a calibrate typ. 

So SL certified sub were allreday test in lakes, in timber wood autoclaves and in self build pressure dock from 40 Yerars old scrap material. But also in full certification pressure docks from the offshore industrie in Aberdeen, Scotland. Its up to the builder. 
He needs a report from the test with all figures and a sign of a person responsible for the dock. 
The repot needs mostly three figures : A date, a deep, and a start and end time. And of course a notice that there is still a intact pressure hull.. If he come with more like grapic reports - fine. 

The result is a sub safe as a big size classification sub (in this size) but for a fraction of the cost. 
The other positive thing is that all private sub builder going this way learn a lot about saftey philosphy. 
Just because he had to do all the work himself. But this is what the most homebuilder anyway like to do. 
The contra is that SL decide after a first meeting (no cost) with the guy if they accept him or not. 
If his mind is to crazy they will mostly not. A big classification will accept anybody which pay the big bill and there rules. 

A normal 2-3 Seater has direct SL Classification cost of about 8.000 Euros maybe 1/10 or 1/20 what a "big" class requires. 

The most extra work for a psuber is that he has do the full documentation. 

A propane tank sub made from unkown material has now chance for a saftey certificate. 
A paid passenger killed in such a sub can cost the owner millions (only if the owners was outside or survife) 

The SL certifiate is  a pure "building certificate" and confirm that the sub was build to safety standard. It is not  a class with repeting function all 2-5 years. The only statement in the certifcate about the use of the sub is that if you major modified the sub you lost the certificate automatically. Or you call Sl for a recalification. 

At the moment all SL certified subs carry passenger (paid or not) and all have found an insurance company for that purpose. 
The lake authorites accept all the paper. Some of them are operational since many years. Only one has ever a accident. 
But this was a pilot mistake. It is in general not wise to unlocked a dome with the sub still just underwater.. 

IF YOU DECIDE that you use yor sub alone or with friends on own risks. 
You need nothing. No class, no certificate, no insurance. And this is good so. Anybody shall responsible for himself. 
But if you decide later to certified it to carr ypeople and to earn some money
- this will be only possible if you have all the required papers and test from the building time. 

Hmm.. okay in theory you can serch for a insurance company which give you a police for a propan tank style sub. 
Give me a call if you find one. 

Vbr Carsten    -by the way my two homebuilds - Sgt.Peppers and Euronaut have no building certificate. 
But Euronaut have all the papers to do so from the building time in case I decide someday a other way. But it has an P&O insurance. Sgt.Peppers has no chance of such a certificate - just because we not safe the material propertie certifiates from the building time and it has no full documentation. Both subs a accident free. Peppers since 28 years. Euronaut since 6. 

-----Original-Nachricht-----
Betreff: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform
Datum: 2017-07-18T03:49:08+0200
Von: "Hugh Fulton via Personal_Submersibles" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
An: "'Personal Submersibles General Discussion'" <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

Jon,
I think the best is a self regulating amateur body.  There could be more than one category possibly,  Retro approved and full compliance.  ASME allows some bending of the rules for vessels by way of calcs if it can be demonstrated by NDA testing that it is safe. 
In NZ if the sub is owned by a commercial organisation or company then it has to comply with ABS or GL but if it is owned by a private individual then it does not have to be compliant as long it is not used for commercial purposes in any way.
The answer for me is Swiss Lloyds for International use. Carsten is an approved inspector,.  From what I remember from our discussion he required
:-
Vessel Calcs, (P-subs has these)
Buoyancy calcs, ( Easily Done)
Drawings, (including Electrical & hydraulic/pneumatic circuits) Material Certificates, (Easily obtained) Pressure tests, (Witnessed) Instrumentation minimums, (according to ABS / GL) Life support systems, Drop weights as per ABS / GL Operating manual. ( Carsten placed a lot of importance on this aspect) Emergency procedures.
Witnessed test dive.
(Carsten can correct all this)

Generally Clubs for motor sports and Home built microlight aircraft  will have their own set of regs.  A registered Marine surveyor could well certify a sub as they do for a vessel going off-shore racing or cruising.
Unfortunately we are in the age of regulation and if we self regulate and have a register then it is more likely to be accepted.  I am sure we could come up with a relatively simple approval procedure with the help of someone like Carsten.  Swiss Lloyds recognised the differences between a Commercial Submarine and a submersible.  

Just my pennies worth.
Hugh

-----Original Message-----
From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org]
On Behalf Of Alan via Personal_Submersibles
Sent: Tuesday, 18 July 2017 12:59 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Ethical obligation to inform

Jon,
they may be shooting themselves in the foot if they want a demarcation between certified & non certified. I wonder how many people that buy certified submersibles would bother keeping up the certification. It may be relevant if they were operating commercially & diving every day, but going through a certification process every year when you aren't using the vessel frequently would be a waste of time & money. If I had a G.L. certified sub in N.Z. I would probably have to fly an inspector out from Germany!
Hopefully we will have an input in this process & opportunity to debate proposals before they become law!
Cheers Alan 

Sent from my iPad

> On 18/07/2017, at 11:55 AM, Jon Wallace via Personal_Submersibles
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Alan,
> 
> Good point regarding the taxi comparison.  However, regarding 
> commercial
fabricators, the issue is not to differentiate between commercial and non-commercial use, but rather certified vs home-built submarines for private use.  An overlap in the "personal" or "private" submarine category exists because commercial fabricators do have a market to supply rich people a submarine "toy" for their own personal use.  What we are seeing, I believe, is a desire from some commercial fabricators to differentiate, in as obvious way as possible, their certified vessel from a home-built vessel to protect their business from any public misconception about "personal"
submarines that might result from an accident involving a home-built.
What's the easiest and most obvious way to do that?  Diminish the perceived quality and/or reliability of non-certified home-built submarines by slapping a label on them such as "experimental".
> 
> As you illustrated with your taxi and private surface boat examples, 
> it
would be much better from our perspective if certified submarines were identified in some manner such as having a sticker from the certifying authority, or "CERTIFIED" emblazoned upon their hull, if they really believe demarcation is necessary to protect their business.
> 
> Jon
> 
> 
> 
>> On 7/17/2017 4:55 PM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles wrote:
>> Thanks for searching that out Jon,
>> if they require a differentiation between commercial & non commercial 
>> submersibles then the onus should be on the commercial vehicles to 
>> mark their submersibles. ie. cars don't have "private vehicle"
>> emblazoned on them, but taxis have "taxi" written on them. Would a 
>> surface boat under 20ft be required to have non commercial vessel 
>> written
on it? I doubt it.
>>    I remember hearing that the MTS didn't include submersibles 
>> originally & it was the submarine people that wanted in.  From what I 
>> have seen of Will Kohnen's submersibles, they are a rich persons toy 
>> rather than a commercial vehicle; so his interests would lie in 
>> limiting
any rules for personal submersibles.
>> Regards Alan
> 
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