[PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Sat Dec 3 16:49:07 EST 2016

Hi Alan,

Yep, You  need air-conditioning  in warm waters and a composite hull. When you dived with me the cabin temperature was perfect. 

-steel hull

-water temp 12 deg. Celsius on average

-3 persons (abt. 1400 Watt heat)

Ludwig , are you aware of the risk of descending to quick in a dry ambient?

Regards, Emile

Van: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] Namens Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
Verzonden: zaterdag 3 december 2016 22:30
Aan: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Onderwerp: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Hi Ludwig,
Cliff's R300 (on psubs project page) was a similar design to Graham Hawke's Falcon.
It had a jet unit out back that rotated for steering, & dive planes.
Cliff has now taken off the jet unit & gone to two horizontal & two
vertical thrusters.
Graham Hawke's latest sub "The Dragon" has horizontal & vertical thrusters.
I met one of Hawke's previous business partners who has now partnered with
Nuytco to develop the Orcasub. He didn't like the "Deep Flight" flying concept
& didn't think it worked well. Orcasub link below.
http://nuytco.com/products/orcasub/
The Falcon might be OK in 200ft visibility water, but has lack of manouverability for
normal conditions.
Additionally, as you are building an ambient, which is not as safe as a 1atm,
it is handy to have two horizontal thrusters to compensate for any sudden 
buoyancy changes.
Have a friend that dived in the Falcoln in Fiji. He said it was really hot
on the surface & remained hot under the water. It has a composite hull, so
not much heat transfer. With your breathing air coming in at 20 liters a minute
in an ambient, it does cool you a bit.
Cheers Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Sunday, December 4, 2016 6:56 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I will try to get a picture drawn and post it when I get the time this weekend. 

Has anyone tried building a sub with the controls like the Deepflight super falcon sub?  

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Dec 2, 2016 4:19 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Hi Luwig,
Doug had large flat acrylic ports glued in to a frame with Sika Flex, on his ambient sub "Seeker".
http://svseeker.com/submarine.htm
He never got to dive it & sold it as is.
He had the acrylic set up so that the pressure was pushing against the glue & not the frame.
I didn't think this was wise, as it could be fatal if the glue failed.
Acrylic scratches easily & is not as impact resistant as fiberglass.
Your submarine has to weigh as much as the water displaced to be neutrally bouyant.
Imagine your hull being a solid block of ice, & you will get a picture of the weight involved.
The owner of the "dry dive" told me he hit a pinacle under the water & it was a massive impact
even at slow speed. So build for strength.
I would imagine acrylic of the thickness you need would be quite expensive.
There are a couple of manufacturers in the States that sell acrylic domes at reasonable prices
in varying sizes & up to I think 10mm thick. The domes for 1atm subs can cost thousands.
If you want to post an image of your ideas we could comment on it.
I am getting the impression you are wanting to build something like a fish tank!
Even a pencil drawing will do.
Cheers Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Friday, December 2, 2016 12:17 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I just got the book "Manned Submersible" the other day and I'm surprise of how big the book is!  

Has anyone tried or attempting to build a sub like Deep Quest?  Any idea on the cost of trying to rebuild it today? 

Anyways, what I really wanted to ask was has anybody tried using Acrylic Sheets on an ambient sub?  I'm thinking about making the frame out of aluminum square tubing and welding them together and mount acrylic sheets on the frame and but a gasket in between the frame and acrylic.  For more complex areas, I'll just use fiberglass.  

Has anybody attempted this type of construction method before? 

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Fri, Nov 25, 2016 7:05 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Hi Ludwig,

just a brief run down on the thrusters.
most people modify trolling motors for underwater use.
The Minn kotta 101 is a popular model for this. 
Cliff Redus has done a modification of one on his psub project page.
I bought 4 cheap Chinese electric trolling motors for my dry ambient,
2 x 300W & 2 x 200W, but when I pulled them apart I found the quality was dubious.
Most of these trolling motors are brushed dc. I am making my own
brushless dc thrusters. They run off dc but can be categorized as AC
as the motor controller sends an alternating current to the motor coils.
A typical set up is to have two horizontal thrusters & two vertical thrusters.
Or just 2 horizontal thrusters that rotate. Like this semi-dry ambient..
http://www.fugusub.com/
The steering is "tractor steering", more power on one than the other turns you.
3 knots is regarded as a reasonable speed for a submersible underwater.
If you double your speed you quadriple your energy consumption, so no need
to overpower it. Two 101s seem to push a K250 along quite well.
The seals in the 101 are rated to about 15ft but have been known to keep water
out at 100ft. Most people either air compensate or oil compensate them so 
the pressure inside the motor housing is equal to the water pressure outside.
This enables you to go quite deep. Karl Stanley goes to 2000ft on air compensated 
thrusters. In his set up he uses a first stage regulator that he has taken the 
spring out of, to give him ambient pressure. Then he lets over expansion of air 
on the way up exhaust out the motor seal. (not good)
I air compensated mine with air coming down the wiring tube from a 2nd stage regulator.
With an ambient you could use the cabin pressure to compensate the motors.
Just have tube from your motor to the hull, with the wires running down it. (cheap)
I prefer oil compensation for cooling of the motor, lubrication of the seals 
& bearings as well as some added protection against water ingress. This is
easy to do in your case, as you could fill the motor with oil & have the air
compensation / wiring tube higher than the motor. The ambient air pressure 
keeps the oil pressurized.
A battery pod seems a good idea, as compensating batteries can be a hasle.
Cheers Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Friday, November 25, 2016 5:09 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I'm currently in the process of CADing it but have some questions over propulsion. 

What type of motor should I look at for my sub?  Should I go with AC or DC motor?

The motors need to be pressure proof along with the batteries, correct?  I was thinking for the batteries, I could make a battery pod out of steel to protect them.

It's going to be nice once I get the book "Manned Submersibles" to look though for tips/ideas!

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Wed, Nov 23, 2016 9:06 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Ludwig, Yes I fiber glassed over the mdf.
If you look at my build on psubs you can see the strips of mdf inside circular
cut outs. I fiber glassed the inside of the strips (stringers) then broke off the
circular cut outs. MDF is not the smartest material to use, but I retrospectively decided
to make an ambient out of my model.
The process worked well, but I would use marine ply. Ply wood is used in fiberglass sandwiches
to give strength. Doug's ambient "Argonaut Junior" is made of marine ply. (Not the Doug that replied
to you). Using ply should save you on cost. I would mix a suitably hard filler with the resin to
go between the gaps of the stringers.
You can see in one picture that I used an exercise ball for the back round section.
I greased the ball with Vaseline then stuck plastic kitchen wrap to it, then fiberglass.
If you do this, be warned that the volume of the ball changes with the temperature.
If you go this path, I would advise that you work out exactly what you need, buy the parts,
make sure they fit in a model, then build. This is very difficult to do as the temptation
is to build the hull so you can see some progress.
   Glad you bought the book; just about everyone on this site would recommend that as a 
first step.
Pleased to help with your future build. 
Regards Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Thursday, November 24, 2016 3:26 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Thanks for all the information!  I'm going to be spending the next couple of days CADing it out in Autodesk Inventor.

Alan, when you where building your sub, did you keep the wood frame inside or did you take it out after the fiberglass cured? 

Also I wanted to let you know I just bought a copy of Manned Submersibles by Busby so hopefully that comes soon in the mail!

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 9:16 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Hi Ludwig,
I don't know how many layers I used & can't remember what weight of cloth
I used. Initially I was making a model out of mdf, & decided to fiberglass
it & make an ambient. I just intuitively added layers till I felt it was strong
enough. I used epoxy / fiberglass, so I didn't have to lay it up in one shot.
Items like the ballast tanks I formed out of polystyrene, glassed over the top
& disolved out the polystyrene with petrol.
On my current build I am using Rhino 5 & Orca. On my ambient I made an
initial model out of chicken wire. No design programs.
Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 2:53 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Alan,

Thanks for the name.  I forgot it was called a moon pool.  You did bring up a good point about it plus it would make it more complex.  I got to think about it for a while if it's worth having.

I have experience with fiberglass and epoxy so that wouldn't be a problem.

What type of fiberglass did you used on your sub and how many layers did you put down?

 And a question for everyone, what do you guys use to design the subs?  Do you use CAD like Autodesk Inventor or do you just design it on paper?

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 7:13 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Ludwig,
they call that a moon pool.
Doug had one on his Arganaut junior. http://svseeker.com/argonaut_jr_2010.htm
He had an "incident" because of it. He surfaced with the moon pool open & the bouncing
motion as he broke the surface & went back down again, compressed the air in his
hull through the moon pool. This made him negatively bouyant & caused him to descend.
As he descended there was more compression of the air and an increasing negative
buoyancy. Before he knew it he was on the bottom, which fortunately was only 20ft
down. This could have been a fatality if he had been over deep water.
   You will find it difficult attaching everything you need to a plastic pipe.
I imagine it would be difficult to glue & attach to securely. It's your life at stake.
Epoxy / Fiberglass isn't cheap, but it's easy to add things to, drill holes through
& attach through hulls, fit your hatch landing to etc. The join is just as strong if you
want to add to it retrospectively, as apposed to the cheaper polyester resin.
Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

What I'm thinking about currently doing is make it a dry ambient but also have a hatch on the bottom so I can dive out on the bottom. (like a diving bell).

Has anybody looked into using a corrugated steel or plastic pipe for the hull?  [This is for a ambient sub, NOT a 1-atm sub]

Would that be cost effective?

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 3:24 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Ludwig,
the semi-dry is like a bowl that is turned upside down with air trapped
in it. So not a lot of structural strength needed other than to support the
lead you are going to need & scuba tanks. All the electronics will need to be 
water & pressure proof. It is mainly the large capacitors that are vulnerable
to pressure & you find these predominantly in the motor controllers. Don't ask me
what pressure they fail at, I have just read that from other posts, & all 
capacitors are not the same.
There are those little scooters that just keep your head dry that could be
regarded as a semi-dry. 
I would be worried about a runaway situation with a semi-dry; where you
couldn't keep the air volume at the correct level & as you descended it would
compress even more. I guess you have vertical thrusters to counter that.
Not a lot more strength required for a dry ambient. A dry ambient will need
a conning tower, as with other submarines. If you build as per my design or
Cliff's R300, you will find it hard to get in without taking in water in
mildly rough conditions.
Alan 

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 8:35 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Thanks for the information Alan! 

I think I'm going to go with the dry ambient design.  Also since I will be working at a dive shop, I would be able to get the regulators at a discounted price. (I'm currently in training to become a dive instructor)

Is the only difference between a dry ambient and semi-dry is that you are not going to be seating in water with the dry ambient or is there also a structural difference?

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Tue, Nov 22, 2016 12:40 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Ludwig,

On my dry ambient I have 2 octopus regulators ( octopus are cheap & don't free flow)

attached to a through-hull outside my hull. I extended the exhaust ports down to stop water coming in.

With the life support air flowing in at 20 liters a minute, this tends to equalize the hull,

& any overpressure goes out the regulator exhaust ports. Supplementary air is automatically

provided by the regulators. There are other ways that people use.

I can elaborate if you go that path.

Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

The easiest solution would be to just build a wet-sub!   

Any idea on how they maintain the air volume?  When scuba diving, you just manually inflate your BCD but I have a feeling those sports sub do something different.

How does a dry ambient regulate the inside air volume?

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 11:57 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Ludwig,

I don't know anyone that's built one, but Tim in Vancouver owns a 

semi-dry sports sub. You enter from underneath (& get wet) & the top

of your torso is above water. It has the advantage of being lighter than a dry ambient,

but is more complex in that you are sitting in a bubble that continually

compresses as you descend & expands as you ascend, & needs to be kept 

at it's initial dive volume to maintain the same level of buoyancy.

Most are built out of fiberglass. 

Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 5:08 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I think all of you guys made some very good points and I do plan on visiting Scott in the next few weeks. 

I think what I will do is go the semi-dry sub route.  Have a mix between a wet and a dry ambient sub!

Has anyone here built a semi-dry sub?  What building material should I use?  Should I go with steel or fiberglass?

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Douglas Suhr via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 9:53 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Welcome to PSUBS Ludwig! You will definitely find some awesome, informative people here who can help you answer questions and make design / fabrication decisions along the way. If possible, a visit to Scott Waters is definitely recommended.   

Bear in mind that I am a novice PSUBBER, but I'll give you my two cents on your situation: If you are a scuba diver and comfortable diving ambient, go for a wet or semi-dry sub, not full on dry ambient. I say this because there are still an infinite number of learning opportunities with a wet sub, but you aren't dealing with the ballast weight needed to sink an entire air-filled hull. If you really want to go dry, go one atmosphere. 

If you are going to be leaving the states in 18-24 months, a wet sub (like a DPU / scooter or a bubble sub) seems like it's just the ticket... whatever you decide, good luck on your journey. Don't forget to pop back on to the list occasionally and give us updates on your progress.  ~ Douglas S.  

On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 3:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

Ludwig,

I believe Brent wasn't that happy with his dry ambient, & there

are aspects that I didn't like, like his large square hatch.

You are only ambient at a certain point between the bottom of

your hull & the top. Everything below this point is under external pressure

& everything above is under internal pressure. This can put a lot

of internal force on the hatch. To visualize it, mentally flip your sub upside

down and fill it with water to ambient point. The weight of water on your hatch

will be equivalent to the internal air pressure on it when diving. 

There are modifications to the batteries that need doing if you want them

in the hull, as they typically crush at about 15ft.

You have 20 liters of air per person flowing in to the hull for life support

plus the air for equalization, which is 4 x the volume of your sub at 100ft.

So a lot of air needed.

 You need to watch that any electronics can handle the pressure you are

diving to. 

I made an ambient that is unofficially the World's smallest submarine as 

a model for a 1 atm. http://www.psubs.org/projects/ 1235435392/ambientsub/ <http://www.psubs.org/projects/1235435392/ambientsub/> 

I can help you if you are set on a dry ambient.

Regards Alan

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>  
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 8:52 AM 

Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I was talking with Scott and he also mentioned that it would take longer then two years to built a 1 atm sub. 

What I'm looking at now is building a dry ambient submarine.  I would learn a lot with building it plus when I move aboard, I can set down and start building a 1 atm sub.  I found a 3 man dry ambient submarine built in New Zealand by Brent Shaw that I'm looking at down scaling for one person.

I should also probably mention that I'm also a scuba diver so a dry ambient submarine won't be much of a problem.

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 1:28 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

Hi Ludwig, welcome.

If you only have 2 years you won't have enough time to finish

a 1 atmosphere submarine. Small or large, it will still need 

a similar amount of time. I built a dry ambient, which was a 

great learning experience, but is not as safe as a 1 atmosphere.

    Take up Scotts offer of a visit, you will learn a lot from that.

Also read through the "Busby manned submersibles" book. 

There is a link on the Psub site o an online version, but most

psubbers end up buying a copy of it.

Cheers Alan

New Zealand

  _____  

From: via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>  
Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:55 AM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

That really doesn't help me much because I'm planning on moving across the pond in around two years! 

I'm looking at a small project that would teach me all the systems so when I move across the pond, I would like to build something along the Euronaut size or a tiny bit smaller.

I've also debated if I should do a wet-sub instead because if I go that route, I wouldn't have to build a pressure hull.  That would only limit me down to 130 foot allowed for recreational diving.

-Ludwig

-----Original Message-----
From: James Frankland via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> >
Sent: Mon, Nov 21, 2016 8:44 am
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Looking at starting up a Submersible project

I think emile has a small ish boat requiring refurbishment for sale?  Probably worth the cost of shipping it over the pond to not have to build from scratch.

On 21 November 2016 at 13:51, Brian Hughes via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org <mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org> > wrote:

I know of an original VAST boat someone is trying to sell out here on the East Coast.

Get Outlook for Android <https://aka.ms/ghei36> 

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