[PSUBS-MAILIST] Overpressure on dome

Sat Aug 6 06:55:21 EDT 2016

Hi Brian,Yes of coarse, that is what I meant.  The Vacuum should grab the hatch unassisted, or water will dribble in until your a few feet under.  Your dogs need to provide enough tension for the initial seal.Hank 

    On Friday, August 5, 2016 8:24 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Hank,          It's just the initial vacuum grab, then it's sealed Brian

--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:

From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Overpressure on dome
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 17:16:44 +0000 (UTC)

Brian,You want the sub to hold vacuum without helping the hatch, otherwise you will need to install eavestroughs.  ;-)  If I don't set my dogs just right I get a drip in Gamma.  That seems no big deal but it is annoying as hell and it gets real cold at the bottom so a wet shirt is not comfy.    I know I sound like a baby but what can I say.Hank 

    On Friday, August 5, 2016 10:04 AM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Hank,  At the moment they just force the hatch closed because there is a bevel on the end of the dogs which force the hatch tight as they go under the hatch ring lip .  The turning shaft for turning the dogs goes through the hatch so I can also turn it from the outside.  So far I have only tested the hatch when I have pulled vacuums on the hull,  so I've been somewhat concerned how it would work under actual conditions.  When I pulled the vacuum, with the hatch dogs tight, there was still the tiniest bit of air trying to get inside the hull, by applying very minimal pressure with my hand to the outside of the hatch a vacuum was created and the hatch locked down tight.   This is all I have to go on.      I think with a foot of water on top of the hatch would equal the pressure I applied with my hand.   I could also apply , I surmise ,  that same amount of pressure if I was inside the sub, just by pulling down on the hatch turning wheel.  So my burping of air on an over pressure situation would be through that slight looseness I experience .  Not very scientific ! Brian   

--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:

From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Overpressure on dome
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 12:03:58 +0000 (UTC)

Brian,How are you applying pressure on the o-ring to seal it until the water pressure takes over.  Are you hatch dogs spring loaded?Hank 

    On Thursday, August 4, 2016 7:45 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Brian,I like it, why not, as long as the dogs catch it.  So simple, there must be an issue?Hank 

    On Thursday, August 4, 2016 7:23 PM, Brian Cox via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 My overpressure valve is my hatch.  With the hatch dogs closed it can still burp out air. brian

--- personal_submersibles at psubs.org wrote:

From: hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Overpressure on dome
Date: Fri, 5 Aug 2016 00:08:21 +0000 (UTC)

Alec, Well, really, we are talking about a pretty unlikely situation.  Gamma has a single HP line to the valves and it is 1\8.  It would not take long to shut off if it burst.  Like you said, it is the pesky little leak that builds up some pressure.  I actually carry a bottle of soapy water in the sub at all times and give a squirt to test for leaks often.  It also smells nice ;-)    I have done the same as you with Elementary 3000, the HP lines are  external and just the valve is inside to the manifold and one 8 inch braided ss 1\8 line to exit the sub.  Pretty safe set up.  Neither of my subs have O\P valves but I do have vent valves.Hank 

    On Thursday, August 4, 2016 5:18 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

 Yes, it's a big valve. Two and a half inches across if I remember right, with a bunch of radial holes in it. The thing is, changing the K250 hatch to take that pressure is just not feasible. You'd basically need a whole new design for the CT and hatch.
On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 4:43 PM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

I think there is an ABS rule that says you can not have more HP gases than the ports or dome can retain.  An over pressure valve is fine if it is big and you can hold your depth in the water column.  I think of deflating a big inner tube with the valve stem removed.  If you have such a situation that requires an over pressure valve to save the day, then there is likely a lot of stuff going on that would be stressful.  I say build so your sub can handle the over pressure and have an over pressure valve to boot.  Can't a K250 have a stronger ring, with straps like Emile has and DW'sI remember Vance saying "copy what the pro's are doing"Hank 

    On Thursday, August 4, 2016 6:52 AM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

 Hi Hank,
I don't think there's any way a K boat hatch, 250 or 350, would hold that in. Tanks on the outside with shutoff valves are a mitigating solution, but an OP valve I'd argue is best because it's automatic and kicks in instantaneously. The 250 hatch is particularly hard to strengthen because the ring that receives the acrylic is pretty lightweight, meaning if you were to put enormous dogs on it the ring itself would probably bend. In short, I don't think it's feasible to harden the K250 hatch against over-pressure, so the way to protect against that is with the OP valve.
Best,
Alec
On Thu, Aug 4, 2016 at 8:22 AM, hank pronk via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

Alan,It seems to me you should have sufficient dome retaining to hold the dome in place with all Hp products fully vented into the sub.  I am sure that the retainers on Snoopy's dome can do that.  I prefer straps,not saying it is a must, but when in doubt, go big.  Hank 

    On Wednesday, August 3, 2016 10:43 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

 I was thinking that if air temperature was above water temperature,(as you would get in Canada) then you could potentially get overpressure.One guy on the internet was saying that his lake temperature was 26C & the air temperature was 10C. In this case the pressure in asub could increase by a couple of psi through the higher water temperature, body & electrical heat. Alan

      From: Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> 
 Sent: Thursday, August 4, 2016 4:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Overpressure on dome

Sorry, the air temperature in the bellows probablywouldn't lag that far behind the air temperature in the sub & sowouldn't increase the pressure much.Yes there would need to be some major leak.However there has been a couple of incidents!Alan

Sent from my iPad
On 4/08/2016, at 3:52 pm, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

Sean,thanks for the maths.I was thinking that the scenario could arise where you dive with an internaltemperature of say 30C & set a bellows add system for the pressure at thattemperature. Then as you dived down to cool water the temperature in thesub dropped to 15C. The air pressure in the sub would gradually halve but the bellows add system would build the pressure up with added O2. If you rose to near the surface & cruised around letting the sub warm up, youcould potentially raise the pressure by quite a bit. Hopefully you would noticethat the O2 % was high in the first place, but if you didn't & the dome retainersweren't substantial, it could contribute to a catastrophic situation.Hmmm think I'll put in an overpressure alarm!Alan

Sent from my iPad
On 4/08/2016, at 2:49 pm, Sean T. Stevenson via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:

The force acting on the dome from the inside is the internal pressure multiplied by the 222D projected area encapsulated by the innermost seal. For example, if your dome is 24" ID and 26" OD (1" thick), if it seats against a single o-ring at the mid diameter, the area would be A = π(12.5)^2 = 491 in. ^2 . Conversely, if the entire window thickness sits against a bearing gasket, the seal extends to the ID, so A = π(12)^2 = 452 in. ^2 .The internal cabin pressure acts uniformly across the entire window, but the external sea pressure does not. Across a 26" OD window, the pressure at the bottom of the window is about 1 psi greater than at the top, so in the absence of proper retention, it would preferentially pull away at the top in the event of overpressure.As far as what to expect, that number should be zero. The only way you will encounter overpressure is if something is leaking gas into the cabin, or if there is a dramatic temperature increase.Your dome retainers need only be strong enough to hold the dome against its seal at whatever delta-P activates the OPV, or some margin above that if it is a slow valve. As a thought, I might be inclined to spring load the retainer arrangement, so if you have a full bottle dump or some other (otherwise) catastrophic event increasing cabin pressure, the dome could vent that gas until it dropped below the spring load, and then the OPV or manual equalizing arrangements would deal with the rest. Of course, you should avoid that possibility in design, but I'm just throwing that out there.Sean

On August 3, 2016 8:10:56 PM MDT, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs. org> wrote:
  Hi all,need some group input here.I was looking at a picture of Snoopy's dome that Doug posted on Facebook. (below)The 6 dome retainers that are made of plastic were making me nervous.There have been a couple of cases of domes blowing off. I think  George Kitrigewas one of them. So I wanted a bit of analysis on this scenario in general.What sort of overpressure can you expect at a max! imum ona dive?Doug's overpressure valve operates at .5psi but if you were 3psi overpressurethe valve wouldn't operate till you were 5ft from the surface & you would have a shorttime to get the pressure down. Also wave movement would factor in & fluctuate the pressure quickly at that depth.I think the K250 dome is 24" diameter. I calculated out that there would be 452lb pressure on the dome retainers for every 1psi overpressure. I based this on the area of a 24" disc, or should I be basing it on the area of the dome? (Sean)At 3psi that would ! be 226lblifting force on each of those 6 plastic retainers!What is a good safety factor here? (Sorry for picking on Snoopy Alec)Cheers Alan

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