[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Fri Apr 22 19:53:32 EDT 2016

Thanks Alan. I've been tossing these suggestions in the direction of a
friend and volunteer who is helping with this part of the design. He's a
top expert in the field of vessel bridge controls, so what may appear
complex to me is hopefully child's play to him.

Incidentally, today I went to pick up Shackleton after she was sandblasted
and painted. I can't wait to start the assembly, but unfortunately the
painter had made the same mistake I did the first time I painted Snoopy,
and that was to assume the inside needed far less protection than the
outside. The outside looked great but the inside needed a lot of rework.
Fortunately he was professional enough to take the feedback and will have
it fixed without adding to the bill. Next week I try to pick up again...

Best,

Alec

On Fri, Apr 22, 2016 at 7:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Alec,
> in hindsight I would advise the Minn kota controller above the Kelly.
> My Kelly brushless controller has about 30 wires coming out of it & most
> of them are irrelevant to my use. They cover all the bases for a multitude
> of operating options for various traction vehicles.
>    Then you need to program it, which involves understanding the
> terminology.
>    I wired mine up & had 3 sets of fault signals blinking at me. It now
> works
> but my motor is running twice the speed it should. ( a brushless Phase
> problem probably)
> The Minn kotta controller is designed specifically for that motor &
> application.
> Cheers Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, April 22, 2016 12:30 AM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> You're right Alan, the tractor control would be pretty simple. Did you use
> the joysticks' side-to-side axis for anything, or just the forward-back?
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alec,
> on my ambient I have 2 x 2 axis joysticks (play station 2 controller)
> Forward & backward of the horizontal thrusters on the forward backward
> axis &
> up & down of the vertical thrusters with the left & right axis.
> I used to angle the controller in my hands to the left, so when pushing
> the joystick to the
> elevated side of the controller you went up. With the tractor steering,
> pushing
> one joystick forward & the other back turned you like turning bicycle
> handlebars.
> It is very intuitive & I can't remember thinking "now what makes what go
> where".
> It is a great system for handing to a novice.
> When I was looking at semi-industrial joy sticks there seemed to be
> options within
> models for "spring to center" I am sure they must have this option on a
> rotating axis.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 1:11 PM
>
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use of
> a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle. That
> is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward, back
> is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between say
> the joystick half way forward or all the way forward?
>
> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so they
> can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm
> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can
> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my
> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy,
> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter
> what I do with the joystick.
>
> 1) Rotating joystick
> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse
> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in
> opposite directions to crab)
> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other
> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob")
>
> 2) Non-rotating joystick
> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse
> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern
> thruster, decreasing to the other
> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface
> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing
>
> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command
> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any
> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is
> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your
> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with
> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet.
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alec
>
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a
> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.  It is very
> beefy.  http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to the
> unit.  I am using model number HFP4M17445.  This a heavy duty commercial
> grade foot control.  The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal with the 2.5V
> as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full reverse.  I
> have really been happy with the unit.  Feels rock solid.  I take the signal
> into my PLC on an analog input channel.  I have some ladder logic that
> enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the rotation axis
> of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal thrusters.   If the
> joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both aft thrusters get
> the same signal such that the more forward you push on the foot control the
> more forward thrust, the faster you go.  When you push down with your heal
> the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back you tilt the foot
> control.  This gives me great forward/reverse and control. When the joy
> stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder logic I start
> increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and decreasing the
> speed of the starboard aft thruster.  This enables me at speed to turn to
> the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter clockwise
> direction caused the boat to turn the port side.  If the foot control is in
> the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the boat about
> its center of gravity.  I have really been happy with how much control this
> gives at any speed.
>
> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I am
> sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing at a
> reduced cost.
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Cliff,
> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.
> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down
> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably
> intuitive to operate?
> Thanks Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc.
>
> Cliff
>
>
> Cliff Redus
>
> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Cliff,
> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options said
> "reverse"
> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change
> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.
> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse
> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.
> Cheers Alan
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Reversing is fully integrated.  See page 27 of users manual at
> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf  for analog
> control.  0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in
> opposite direction and 2.5v is off.
>
> Cliff
>
>
> Cliff Redus
>
> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Cliff / Alec,
> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw 2x60A
> HV Brushed DC motor controller.
> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating it
> with the controller if
> it doesn't have that function.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> At Robotshop.com <http://robotshop.com/>, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV
> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.  Each board would
> control two of the MK101s independently.  Has a lot of flexibility on input
> signal.  If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal.
>
>
> Cliff
>
> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the MK
> trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and have
> not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old) but
> it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>
> Best,
>
> Alec
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4 thrusters.
> They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have an internal
> relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means that
> absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller powered
> up while in the garage.
>
> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from Curtis.
> This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was irritating.
>
>
> Cliff Redus
>
> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> What did Cliff use?
> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
> Alan
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the
> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm
> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems
> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more
> advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel
> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one
> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>
> Thanks guys for all the input!
>
> Alec
>
> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
> Hi Alec,
> that one says brushless?
> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the controller
> is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller whose
> continual
> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some
> manufacturers over rate
> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, & their
> ratings accurate,
> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday & the
> ON light
> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the
> pre-ignition resister
> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
> Alan
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>
> Hi all,
>
> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton over
> the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from Roboteq:
>
>
> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>
> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters. Roboteq
> offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still handles
> the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less
> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous
> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>
> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to
> consider?
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Alec
>
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