[PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers

Wed Apr 20 21:49:19 EDT 2016

Small angle gives small change in control voltage from 2.5v neural
position.  Large angle give larger change.  Max and min values are 5v and
0v.  So angle is related to speed of the vertical thrusters.

Cliff

On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:

> Yes, I understood all that. But the joystick angle is not used for
> anything?
>
> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>
>> Alec, I use the foot control for forward and reverse not the joystick
>> rotary axis.  Rotary axis just rotates the boat.  As the foot control moves
>> more and more forward, the voltage signal coming out increases linearly
>> from 2.5 to 5v.  I use this with a PLC analog output signal to linearly
>> increase the speed of aft horizontal controllers.  So after you get past
>> the dead band on foot control, you get a very slow speed turning of the
>> prop.  As you increase the forward foot control movement, the thruster move
>> faster and faster.
>>
>> Cliff
>>
>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 8:11 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>
>>> That was very timely for me Cliff, thanks. I'm curious, given your use
>>> of a foot control for throttle, whether you are using the joystick angle.
>>> That is, I understand if you move the stick forward the sub goes forward,
>>> back is reverse, and neutral is stopped. But is anything different between
>>> say the joystick half way forward or all the way forward?
>>>
>>> I can't really use a pedal because my controls are to be portable so
>>> they can be handed off between occupants and used anywhere on the boat. I'm
>>> considering two control paradigms and wonder whether anyone here can
>>> envision a preference, or maybe some other idea. You all just became my
>>> focus group! I should say I loved the "depth knob" concept on Snoopy,
>>> whereby one knob controls vertical thrust, so I'm keeping that no matter
>>> what I do with the joystick.
>>>
>>> 1) Rotating joystick
>>> JS Forward/back --> sub goes forward/reverse
>>> JS Side to side --> crabbing (side thrusters are angled, and run in
>>> opposite directions to crab)
>>> JS rotation --> increase one stern thrusters, decrease the other
>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface ("depth knob")
>>>
>>> 2) Non-rotating joystick
>>> JS Forwar/backd --> sub goes forward/reverse
>>> JS Side to side --> "virtual rudder" increasing speed to one stern
>>> thruster, decreasing to the other
>>> Vertical thumb wheel --> dive-surface
>>> Horizontal thumb wheel --> crabbing
>>>
>>> In all cases, the thruster speed would be proportional to the command
>>> input. One thing I'm unsure of is whether the rotating joysticks have any
>>> return-to-neutral bias. Do they just stay rotated if you let them go? Is
>>> there a click as you go through zero degrees? With the other two axes, your
>>> hand knows where things are at, but I'm not sure how that works with
>>> rotation since I have not actually handled one of these joysticks yet.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Alec
>>>
>>>
>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Cliff Redus via Personal_Submersibles <
>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Alan, I use a foot control from OEM controls. This is a
>>>> hall effect potentiometer made for mobile heavy equipment.  It is very
>>>> beefy.  http://www.oemcontrols.com/datasheets/hfp4.pdf is a link to
>>>> the unit.  I am using model number HFP4M17445.  This a heavy duty
>>>> commercial grade foot control.  The version I have sends a 0-5vdc signal
>>>> with the 2.5V as the neutral position, 5V for full forward and 0v for full
>>>> reverse.  I have really been happy with the unit.  Feels rock solid.  I
>>>> take the signal into my PLC on an analog input channel.  I have some ladder
>>>> logic that enable me to integrate both the foot control signal and the
>>>> rotation axis of my 3 axis joy stick control to both aft horizontal
>>>> thrusters.   If the joy still rotary axis is in neutral position, then both
>>>> aft thrusters get the same signal such that the more forward you push on
>>>> the foot control the more forward thrust, the faster you go.  When you push
>>>> down with your heal the thrusters reverse proportional to the how far back
>>>> you tilt the foot control.  This gives me great forward/reverse and
>>>> control. When the joy stick is rotated in a clockwise manner, in PLC ladder
>>>> logic I start increasing the speed of the port aft horizontal thruster and
>>>> decreasing the speed of the starboard aft thruster.  This enables me at
>>>> speed to turn to the starboard side. Rotating the joystick in the counter
>>>> clockwise direction caused the boat to turn the port side.  If the foot
>>>> control is in the neutral position, then rotating the joy stick rotates the
>>>> boat about its center of gravity.  I have really been happy with how much
>>>> control this gives at any speed.
>>>>
>>>> Now on the negative side, the foot controller is expensive at $328. I
>>>> am sure with a little looking you could find one that does the same thing
>>>> at a reduced cost.
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Apr 20, 2016 at 2:22 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Cliff,
>>>>> can you tell me a bit about your foot controls.
>>>>> Is it an off the shelf system? Is it forward, back,up & down
>>>>> on all motors? How is it working out, was it reasonably
>>>>> intuitive to operate?
>>>>> Thanks Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Thursday, April 21, 2016 5:40 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> By changing resistors you can use 0 to 5 Vdc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 20, 2016, at 8:08 AM, Alan via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Cliff,
>>>>> I was a bit wary as in my search for BLDC ESCs a lot of their options
>>>>> said "reverse"
>>>>> but were only a programable function that enabled you to change
>>>>> from forward to reverse without having to disconnect the wires.
>>>>> You couldn't actually flick a switch on your transmitter & reverse
>>>>> the motor. BTW it says 0-2V on page 26.
>>>>> Cheers Alan
>>>>>
>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>
>>>>> On 20/04/2016, at 11:06 pm, via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Reversing is fully integrated.  See page 27 of users manual at
>>>>> http://downloads.ionmc.com/docs/roboclaw_user_manual.pdf  for analog
>>>>> control.  0v signal gives full speed one direction, 5v gives full speed in
>>>>> opposite direction and 2.5v is off.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 10:38 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff / Alec,
>>>>> I couldn't see anything about a reverse function on the USB RoboClaw
>>>>> 2x60A HV Brushed DC motor controller.
>>>>> It may be a bit of work making up the reversing circuit & integrating
>>>>> it with the controller if
>>>>> it doesn't have that function.
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* via Personal_Submersibles <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 2:51 PM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> At Robotshop.com <http://robotshop.com/>, the USB RoboClaw 2x60A HV
>>>>> Brushed DC motor controller would work just as well.  Each board would
>>>>> control two of the MK101s independently.  Has a lot of flexibility on input
>>>>> signal.  If you are using PLC, send it a 0-5vdc analog signal.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 9:24 PM, Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks Cliff. Is the controller a component you pulled from inside the
>>>>> MK trolling motor or is it a standalone product? I did a few searches and
>>>>> have not turned up anything standalone. I do have such a unit (really old)
>>>>> but it's for a way lower-powered motor than the 101s.
>>>>>
>>>>> Best,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 9:58 PM, via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Alan/Alec, I use Minn Kota 36v controllers for each of my 4
>>>>> thrusters.  They have worked great.  They are potted and rugged.  They have
>>>>> an internal relay with a dead band around 2.5v signal voltage.  This means
>>>>> that absolutely no current flows even if you left the motor controller
>>>>> powered up while in the garage.
>>>>>
>>>>> My previous motor controller for my big traction motor was from
>>>>> Curtis.  This worked great but generated a high pitch noise that was
>>>>> irritating.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Cliff Redus
>>>>>
>>>>> On Apr 19, 2016, at 6:35 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> What did Cliff use?
>>>>> He has been through this process recently with a 101.
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 11:12 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> No, the one I was considering was not for brushless motors. It's the
>>>>> Roboteq XDC2460, rated for 80A continuous duty per channel. But now I'm
>>>>> looking at Kelly I really like what I'm seeing there too, and Curtis seems
>>>>> to be similar. This will probably come down to a decision between a more
>>>>> advanced  dual channel from Roboteq or a super simple single-channel
>>>>> controllers from the likes of Curtis/Kelly. In general if the simpler one
>>>>> can do the job, it's the one I would prefer even if it cost the same.
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks guys for all the input!
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 19, 2016 at 6:09 PM, Alan James via Personal_Submersibles
>>>>> <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Alec,
>>>>> that one says brushless?
>>>>> On the Kelly faq page for selecting controllers it suggests.....
>>>>> HOW TO CHOOSE A SUITABLE CONTROLLER FOR THE MOTOR?
>>>>> Usually the performance will be optimized if the power of the
>>>>> controller is 2.0-3.0 times of the motor's.
>>>>>    I guess that means if you have a 2000W motor you get a controller
>>>>> whose continual
>>>>> amp rating X max voltage is at least 4000W.
>>>>>    I have heard that it is better to aire on the safe side as some
>>>>> manufacturers over rate
>>>>> their controllers. Kelly have a reputation of being good & cheap, &
>>>>> their ratings accurate,
>>>>> however Hugh has had problems with them & I wired up mine yesterday &
>>>>> the ON light
>>>>> isn't working when powered up. I put power on it once without the
>>>>> pre-ignition resister
>>>>> so this may have stuffed it, but surely it wouldn't be so fickle!
>>>>> Alan
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> ------------------------------
>>>>> *From:* Alec Smyth via Personal_Submersibles <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *To:* Personal Submersibles General Discussion <
>>>>> personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
>>>>> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 20, 2016 9:45 AM
>>>>> *Subject:* [PSUBS-MAILIST] Speed controllers
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi all,
>>>>>
>>>>> I need to finalize my selection of speed controllers for Shackleton
>>>>> over the next week or so, and at first blush am looking at this one from
>>>>> Roboteq:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.roboteq.com/index.php/docman/motor-controllers-documents-and-files/documentation/datasheets/hbl23xx/59-hbl23xx-datasheet/file
>>>>>
>>>>> There will be two of them, each driving a pair of MK101 thrusters.
>>>>> Roboteq offers a controller family that is a step down from this and still
>>>>> handles the required amperage, and which is tempting because it's much less
>>>>> expensive. However, the specs are too close for comfort (50A continuous
>>>>> duty rating vs. MK101 requirement of 46A).
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyone have any suggestions for other cost-effective controllers to
>>>>> consider?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Alec
>>>>>
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>>>>
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