[PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

Thu Apr 10 01:06:21 EDT 2014

Hank

The spheres at Perry were not spun, but fabricated much as the DW hulls are done using pressed segments. In the thicker material, it is very difficult to hold a nominal thickness without going really heavy and then machining the result.

Hank, is that figure for the .75" thickness or the 1.25"? Displacement is something like 7250# in seawater (6'OD). I would hope for a little better payload out of that than...what, less than 20%? Something like that.

Vance

-----Original Message-----
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org>
Sent: Wed, Apr 9, 2014 7:39 pm
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

Quick math,
that sphere is 1,300 lbs buoyant, not bad.  How likely is it a sphere that thick can be rolled to within 1/8 in.  Probably can be done.
Hank

  On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:22:26 PM, Vance Bradley <VBra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:

As a comparison. The 6' sphere Perry used for the 3000' ARMS bells and the PC-16 were .75" wall HY-100. More expensive, but 40%(ish) lighter. 
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 9, 2014, at 6:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

Scott,
I make 1.23" thick for a 72" ID sphere 516-70 to that depth, sea water. 
That was on the "free" Under Pressure program. It should be somewhere in the ball park.
Alan

   From: "swaters at waters-ks.com" <swaters at waters-ks.com>
 To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org> 
 Sent: Thursday, April 10, 2014 10:29 AM
 Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

Would anyone on psubs who knows how to use CAD run a pressure test on a simple 6' sphere with ASME 516 grade 70 steel, then again with HY-80? What are required wall thicknesses to meet crush depth of 5709 feet (2543 psi). If you have time maybe even a 48" cylinder with ribs. 
On a lighter note, Alec and I have been talking about hard to find things that I can make for psub members with my plasma robot. I am going to attempt making a manipulator arm kit that will be inexpensive and very functionable for our subs. I'll post progress as it comes.

Thanks,
Scott Waters

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine
From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 3:12 pm
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

Scott,
Don't give up, talk to a submarine hull designer.  Someone who does this for a living, explore all the options.
Pay for a design in material that is workable

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 4:06:47 PM, "swaters at waters-ks.com" <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

Ugg. Ok. That might kill that idea.
-Scott Waters 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine
From: Daniel Lance Lance <lanceind at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 2:57 pm
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

Scott, 
 A 3300 fsw capable sub will more then likely require that the pressure hull be fabricated from HY-80 or HY-100 . I can assure you that working with either of these two alloys is not for the faint of heart or wallet . I am sure Phil Nuytten can shed some light on this subject . Idabel was built from parts scavenged from some well know subs. If memory serves me correctly the acrylic dome and a HY-100 sphere came IUC's Beaver . The other sphere came from one of the Perry boats .( Vance if I have this wrong please set me straight ). If you get lucky and find some similar bargains you might hit your budget of $100 to $200K . If you have to start from scratch I think $1 to $2 million would not be unrealistic considering the learning curve you will experience. The level of quality control required to work with HY type alloys is something to behold . I am not saying it can't be done it's just that you might make a serious dent in your inheritance .
Just my two cents,
Dan Lance

On Wed, Apr 9, 2014 at 2:07 PM, <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

Thanks Carsten for the encouragement
Thanks Alan for all the CAD info

-Scott Waters 

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

From: "Carsten Standfuß " <MerlinSub at t-online.de>
Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 10:33 am
To: "Personal Submersibles General Discussion"
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

Scott thats excat the way to go. Big step for a man - but not immpossible to reach.

"We are going to the moon, not because it is easy, but because it is hard.."  

<swaters at waters-ks.com> schrieb: 

The good thing is I have a very capable shop now days. With every process of welding available, robotic plasma cutting and design software, a 8,000 crain/lift, metal lathe, hydrolic ban saw with coolant, and about every tool anyone could want, it makes life a lot easier. When I started my K-350 back 5 years ago I was a kid with a set of blue prints and a goal of one day having a submarine and that's it. I didn't know anything about submarines besides they used "ballast" to go up and down. I didn't know how to weld at all or even knew what a metal lathe was. And the only tools I had was a small tool bag with basic stuff my dad had given me from our family hardware store as a graduation present. The reason I don't want to build a 1000' sub is it is not a big enough goal. I need something that is the difficulty level of starting with nothing and no idea to a k-350. I compare a k-350 to a 1000m (3300') sub with completely capable manipulator and tooling with very advanced technology to be a similar difficulty level and step. I also want to push the envelope for psubs about what we are capable of. Combined we have so much knowledge that if we all worked together, we could be producing ideas and inventions right up there with the big dogs. Hope this helps with everyone understanding my vision

Thanks,
Scott Waters

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>
Date: Wed, April 09, 2014 5:42 am

To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
<personal_submersibles at psubs.org>

You can not make a comparison between what Karl built and what Scott wants to build.  The two subs are totally different.  I could see building Scott's dream sub for 125K if you have your own  pressure vessel fab shop.  (maybe)  Otherwise it just isn't realistic for that cost.  
I do not mean to imply that Scott or any other psub builder can not build a k3000.  As a matter of fact with the proper budget and realistic assessment of your abilities we can all do it.  
Hank

On Wednesday, April 9, 2014 5:06:52 AM, James Frankland <jamesf at guernseysubmarine.com> wrote:

Scott,
Have a look at this. As long as your a student of something, somewhere, your ok.  Join a local tiddlywinks class or something.

http://www.autodesk.com/education/free-software/inventor-professional

This is not too difficult to use.
Regards
James

On 9 April 2014 04:09, swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

I will do the work myself, and not hire it out professionally. I built my K-350 and it was $40,000 after all the gadgets were put in and I hired out alot of work because I didn't know how to do it at the time. I did a comparative analysis on weight to dollar. My K-350 at $40,000 and 4,500 lbs is comparative ofa 10,500 lb sub would be $93,333 if you add more for acrylic costs my rough math seems to jive with the $125,000. 

Thanks,
Scott Waters

Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone

hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca> wrote:

I think that is a dream guys, 125K no way.  Not if it is a professional build, and it has to be.  If you do it right you can spend that to do 1,000 feet.  
Hank

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 8:25:15 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:

Wow! $125K for 2500 ' 3000 feet? That's some serious dollar-to-fathom value! 

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 10:14 PM, swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

$125,000 is reachable for me. Sounds like this could be a reality.

Thanks,
Scott Waters

Sent from my U.S. Cellular© Smartphone

Vance Bradley <VBra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:

He said in an interview that Idabel cost $125,000.

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 8, 2014, at 10:03 PM, Douglas Suhr <spiritofcalypso at gmail.com> wrote:

Scott, I have no experience with any large pressure chambers, but I am sure you are talking well into the thousands (perhaps $15,000 to $35,000) depending on how long it takes to set up the required tests (and perform them).  

I truly admire your ambition, but like Hank suggested, 1000 feet may be a better 2nd sub goal. If I were planning to go beyond 1000 feet, I would be looking to Nuytco, SeaMagine or Triton but of course cost is then a major issue again. Does anyone know about how much Karl spent building Idabel? ~ Douglas S. 

On Tue, Apr 8, 2014 at 7:48 PM, swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

Any idea as to the cost of pressure testing that kind of pressure? 
Also, I am not a engineer, but am fairly good at designing things in my head. If I designed this in CAD, does psubs have a good way of sharing CAD files for who ever would like too look at my designs and bounce ideas off of? 
I would love for this project to be a way for psubs to increase overall psubs knowledge of cutting edge and affordable solutions for things like sonar and manipulator arms and things.

Thanks,
Scott Waters

Vance Bradley <VBra676539 at AOL.com> wrote:

Maryland and California (Navy) and Texas (southwest research).
Vance

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 8, 2014, at 7:14 PM, swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com> wrote:

So is the design of crush depth of 1750m and test to 1250m the idea? Next question is where can you find a pressure chamber that has 1670psi capability?

Thanks,
Scott Waters

Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com> wrote:

Scott,
in general people design their boats with a crush depth of
twice their operating depth, then test them to 1.25 or 1.5 x
there proposed maximum operating depth.

So design to 2000 meters & test it to 1250 meters.
Alan

From: swaters <swaters at waters-ks.com>
To: personal_submersibles at psubs.org 
Sent: Tuesday, April 8, 2014 4:29 PM
Subject: [PSUBS-MAILIST] New submarine

I am playing with the idea of building another submarine. Here is what I am thinking.
1) This project needs to be as challenging as the same amount of difficulty as it was to build my first submarine
2) I want to have lots of bottom time with my K-350 to learn what needs to be improved on in design and ability.
3) Learn to use CAD 
4) Project will take 5-7 years to complete

My initial goals are
1) Hold 3 people
2) Weigh 10,500lbs or less
3) Depth of 3,300 feet (1000m)

4) Have a very effective range of abilities such as a good manipulator arm and tooling

5) Have a wide veiwing maybe a acylic dome front

Ok, shoot holes in the ideas. What will be the main challenges to overcome? What complications am I not considering?

Thanks,
Scott Waters

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