[PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

[Smyth, Alec]

I would propose this stuff: http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_11151_10001_100305_-1?ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=100305&cid=sc_googlepla&device=c&network=g&matchtype=&gclid=CPryq7zz4boCFYhcMgodlnEAIA#.UoODI_leaSo

Its epoxy that comes just loaded (really, really loaded) with very long fibers. So much fiber in fact that when you open the can it looks like a bowl of superfine spaghetti. When it hardens it turns into a rock. Snoopy’s saddle tanks are mounted with little bits of stainless hex rod that have blind threaded holes in them, and are set in this material. That’s a pretty high stress application, and so far so good, you can jump up and down on those tanks.

Alan, I don’t dislike the idea at all, but it’s just that the Korts are perhaps the last thing to be made on the new sub, and I’m really focused on more basic tasks at this point. At the moment, I’m fabricating all the bits and pieces for mounting the thrusters on the hull.


Best,

Alec



From: Personal_Submersibles [mailto:personal_submersibles-bounces at psubs.org] On Behalf Of Alan
Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 9:10 PM
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Hank,
Thanks for the vote of confidence.
I hadn't given submarines a thought till a few years ago.
I think the art background & a bit of experience with fibreglass gave
me the confidence to start the project.
I may do a bit of casting between thin shelled non printed items first.
Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:17 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
Your right, now that I think of it.  I have seen broken plastic with the fibers showing.  Sounds like your the one to start experimenting with this.  When you were working on your art projects did you ever think you would be building kort nozzles for a submarine.
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:56:16 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hank,
I bought a plastic pressure regulator recently that has an
inlet pressure of 10 bar & was made of nylon reinforced
with glass fiber. so where strength is needed the commercially
manufactured plastic items have glass added. Of course this
would have been formed in an injection molder under a lot of
pressure, so the thickness of the molten plastic wouldn't matter.
You may be right that in the thin sections something other than
resin will work better. However possibly small amounts of milled
fiber in resin might be stronger than alternative materials without it.
With regard to bubbles in castings; you can always patch up the
surface later. If you leave the printed shell on they won't show.
Alan

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, November 13, 2013 1:22 PM
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alan,
That seems logical providing the void is large enough.  I found with building electrical penetrators that if the void is to small, air pockets are created.  I still think plastic is the way to go because fiberglass resin is only strong when supported by fibers.  The more fibers the stronger it is but less workable in a small void.  Plastic in liquid form flows very well and has strength without fibers.  I will bow to your experience though.
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 5:09:38 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
If I can convince Alec that I know what I'm talking about he might
try this on his 3d printer. I am tempted to buy a printer but it would be
a bit premature as my CAD skills aren't at a level to export to it yet.
My latest thoughts are to build larger models up with hollow sections
that have external flanges to glue them together. Then pour a mold
release in to the cavity, swirl it around, tip the excess out & allow to
dry. Possibly a gel coat could be poured in, in a similar process. Then
fill with the resin & milled fibre. Finally when the resin is set, peel
or cut off the printed shell. Of course with a lot of things like this they
are easier said than done.
Alan



Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 10:53 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
sounds like you bin there done that
Hank

On Tuesday, November 12, 2013 12:20:18 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
as an artist I made a number of molds out of different materials.
Silicone was best but cost N.Z. $70- a liter.
You need to make a supporting structure to pour the silicone in to,
then on bigger molds, an external support structure for the silicone mold.
Some times the silicone molds need to be made in two halves.
So not always easy. I thought about doing the kort nozzle with a mold,
But it would be a huge amount of work with the mold built in several sections.
There is probably not a lot on a submarine you would want to mass produce.
That's why I like the idea of this printing process for one offs.
Also making the objects hollow will save on printer time & material.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 13/11/2013, at 2:27 AM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
How about take the printed mould and make it smaller, then use it to make a rubber mould.  Then you can make as many pieces as the mold can handle.   Unless you have lots of space you will have trouble with thick mixes.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 8:43:53 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Looks good Hank,
has only 0.01 shrinkage. So if shrinkage were an issue it may be an option.
You could probably mix glass fiber with it to strengthen it.
Here is an epoxy product that is not quite half the price & has the fiber mixed in it.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EPOXY-RESIN-VERY-HARD-CASTING-RESIN-LIQUID-FIBERGLASS-/310112944078?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item48342bffce
It is a gel like consistency so may not suit every application. Has 0.1 shrinkage.
Again if I just use the resin + glass fiber, I can mix to my desired consistency.
Another thought that came to mind was to pour a mold release in to the printed shell
& drain it out so as to leave a film on the inside. Then pour in the resin & peel off the
printed outside when set. This would leave a fiberglass product that could be attached with
epoxy to other structures.
Alan

From: hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>>
To: Personal Submersibles General Discussion <personal_submersibles at psubs.org<mailto:personal_submersibles at psubs.org>>
Sent:
Subject: Re: [PSUBS-MAILIST] Printed Kort Nozzle

Alan,
look at liquid plastic on e bay.  It is cheap and there is one brand that cures at 180 degrees f.  This is polyurethane casting resin.  Nice stuff but maybe not for kort nozzles.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 6:03:27 PM, Alan <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
Hi Hank,
I'm not familiar with liquid plastic.
I use the West systems epoxy, where you have your epoxy & hardener & throw
In the other additives that give it various properties, like hardness.
The glass fibre will give it a lot of structural strength & I can mix it in as thick or
as thin as I want depending on the section thickness / complexity of the form I want to fill.
Also price wise, mixing seems a lot cheaper than off the shelf pre-mixed items.
Alan

Sent from my iPad

On 12/11/2013, at 1:30 PM, hank pronk <hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca<mailto:hanker_20032000 at yahoo.ca>> wrote:
Alan,
this may be a dumb question,,, why not use liquid plastic.  The stuff I use is strong and shrinks almost nothing.  It also does not generate heat when curing.  This stuff is the harness of a hockey puck.
Hank

On Monday, November 11, 2013 5:26:33 PM, Alan James <alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com<mailto:alanlindsayjames at yahoo.com>> wrote:
To interested parties,
I spoke with a 3d printing expert, Richard, regarding filling hollow sections of 3d printed items with
fiber reinforced resin. He hadn't heard of it, but thought it had a lot of potential.
He suggested watching out for heat generated in the exothermic reaction, as we had already
discussed, and printing a roughened interior surface as a key for the epoxy, to stop the exterior
delaminating.
I also spoke to an epoxy tech who told me epoxy only shrinks about 1/2% & with additives such as
milled fiber the percentile shrinkage of the whole will decrease proportionate to the additive.
So shrinkage may not be a major problem.
Will do some experimenting.
Alan





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